Babies: 3 - 6 Months

Baby Manipulating Parents (kinda long)

people all have something to say about whether or not your child is learning to manipulate you.

It seems like most people on these boards is of the opinion that babies "can't" manipulate parents until a certain age (of course it varies what age people begin to think this is possible).

I don't think babies manipulate their parents...not intentionally. But I do believe that we are teaching them what to expect from us. I was just thinking about it, and I thought I'd kinda throw the thought out there for you ladies, see what you think.

Based on research and my (very) limited experience, it seems that babies only cry for what they believe they are entitled to. If your baby is crying because s/he needs to be rocked for an hour to fall asleep, it is because you have taught them that they are entitled to being rocked to sleep. If LO is crying to be held constantly, it is because you have taught them that they are entitled to being held constantly.

I think most parents are willing to put up with this behavior up to different points in time. As a parent, it is your job to decide when you think it is time for your child to learn that they are not entitled to something anymore. And I think as with any type of change, the longer a person (child) has to get used to things being one way, the longer it takes (and the harder it is) to break them of this way of doing things.

Take it for what it is. Manipulation is a complex issue, because the term itself implies malicious or self-serving intent. In reality, manipulation is simply when a person decides what they want someone to do, and decides to do something to elicit that response from that person. In its simplest terms, babies really do nothing but manipulate you. How else would they survive? Children are created to be self serving, self indulgent creatures because it is their only means of survival.

I don't know. Not trying to start any arguments here, just kinda throwing thoughts out there. I think that being a nurturing parent is of the utmost importance, but what really determines the kinds of actions and behaviors your child has is your ability to set limits, boundaries and expectations. Children will manipulate and test and push you because that is what they do to learn how to behave. Who they become as a person will be determined by how you react to their actions at a young age. I guess when it comes to babies, just as with older children, it's your job as a parent to know your baby, judge what they seem capable of understanding, and set your limits when you feel is appropriate for your child and your family.

If anyone actually reads this, let me know what you think.

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Re: Baby Manipulating Parents (kinda long)

  • I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that babies manipulate to elicit a response from people. Of course they cry out of instinct when they have a need to be met, but they don't know at first that someone will come meet that need, That is what we have to teach them, that we will be there to comfort and care for them. For instance, L was an insanely needy newborn and needed to be held all the time. Did she cry because she wanted to see if I would drop what I was doing to bow in service for her? No. She cried because she spent nine months in a comfortable and warm space, and suddenly she was taken away from the only space she knew and she was scared and uncomfortable in her new world.

    I do cater to my baby: feed on demand, hold her as much as she wants, etc. I want her to know that I am someone she can count on. Now, I also take steps to help her become an independent person, but I feel that the more secure she is now, the more self-assured she will be throughout her life.

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  • I disagree. Manipulation implies that a CONSCIOUS decision was made. That requires a higher order of reasoning that a small baby just doesn't have. Do they try to get you to do what they want? Sure. But that's because all they know is what they need, and those needs have to be met. Its not the same as an older baby/child simply WANTING to be held.

     

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    Annelise 3.22.2007 Norah 10.24.2009 Amelia 8.7.2011
  • imageDoylesa:
    I completely agree with this.

    Yes

     

  • I was just saying the other day, how dd is manipulating me bc she cries when she is put in her crib and as soon as even go in there and she sees me, she smiles and laughs. I was like u little manipulator. They learn that their behaviors cause responses, tears= mommy taking me out of the crib. But I will let her manipulate me bc its okay if she wants to manipulate me to hold her and rock her for ten minutes back to bed. There will probably be a line in the future, but for now it works.
  • imagejessicaclare:

    Manipulation implies that a CONSCIOUS decision was made.

     

    imagejessicaclare:

    Do they try to get you to do what they want? Sure.

    you do realize you completely contradicted yourself here?

    i believe the OP did state that it's not a malicious intent to manipulate...which of course it isn't; however, it is a conscious action on their part:  once they have a slightly longer memory, which is around the age range of our LO's, behaving a certain way has gotten a response they wanted, so they continue to do it until that behavior no longer gets the response they want.

  • In my opinion when DS cries and screams because he wants to be comforted, either by being rocked or held it is not because he feels entitled... It is because he needs it. My son is independent and has no problem playing by himself or falling asleep on his own. But on the occasion that he is teething and or having stomach pains from his dairy allergy he becomes very needy and I don't think that is something I taught him. He needs to be comforted and I have no problem with that!
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  • I have major problems with the use of the word "manipulation" with regards to babies.  As you write, manipulation implies a malicious intent.  I don't think it's appropriate to ascribe malicious intent to an infant who isn't develomentally capable of it. 

    I disagree with your argument that babies cry because they don't get what they feel entitled to.  I think babies cry because they have a need and they are "entitled," just as all of us are, to something to help their need.  Also I disagree that this is something that is taught.  I don't think we teach our babies to like being cuddled to sleep.  I think it's instinctual for them to want physical contact from their mothers.  I think the idea that this is taught implies that it can be un-taught that the mother is at fault for "teaching" their LO to want to be cuddled. 

    Fundamentally, I think babies are entitled to be treated with the same respect as adults.  When we need something, we're allowed to get others to help us.  Why can't babies?  

     

  • imagetigergreen:
    imagejessicaclare:

    Manipulation implies that a CONSCIOUS decision was made.

     

    imagejessicaclare:

    Do they try to get you to do what they want? Sure.

    you do realize you completely contradicted yourself here?

    i believe the OP did state that it's not a malicious intent to manipulate...which of course it isn't; however, it is a conscious action on their part:  once they have a slightly longer memory, which is around the age range of our LO's, behaving a certain way has gotten a response they wanted, so they continue to do it until that behavior no longer gets the response they want.

    Fine, I'll rephrase. Babies try to get what they NEED. I don't think wanting has anything to do with it. To say that you can extinguish a behavior in a baby as small as 3 or 4 months by simply not responding to it is, IMO, ridiculous. I'm not saying that is what the OP meant, but the idea that you're "teaching" your child to continue a behavior is a pretty slippery slope. A 6 month old may just be at the start of the age of "manipulation". A 3 or 4 month old isn't even close. 

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    Annelise 3.22.2007 Norah 10.24.2009 Amelia 8.7.2011
  • imagejessicaclare:

    I disagree. Manipulation implies that a CONSCIOUS decision was made. That requires a higher order of reasoning that a small baby just doesn't have. Do they try to get you to do what they want? Sure. But that's because all they know is what they need, and those needs have to be met. Its not the same as an older baby/child simply WANTING to be held.

     

    I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I agree that it does require conscious decision. But by this age you've seen your child consciously decide they want something...whether it's to grab a toy, get to their toes, get their sock off, roll over, what have you. Anyone with a child in this age range has seen their child has a massive capacity to learn. So am I to understand that even though you have watched your child learn to do all of these other things, you don't believe your child is capable of deciding they want to be held? Or is it that you believe for some reason being held constantly is a legitimate need, and that your child is communicating it to you simply for the sake of survival?

    All I'm saying is, you're setting the expectation for your child to be held every time they cry. They believe they are entitled to it because you have always given in to it. Something like this is most definitely a weaning process of course (given the fact that they were constantly held in the womb), but it's your decision when and how to show your child that they do not NEED to be held.

  • imagebethlhurn:
    imagejessicaclare:

    I disagree. Manipulation implies that a CONSCIOUS decision was made. That requires a higher order of reasoning that a small baby just doesn't have. Do they try to get you to do what they want? Sure. But that's because all they know is what they need, and those needs have to be met. Its not the same as an older baby/child simply WANTING to be held.

     

    I definitely understand where you're coming from, and I agree that it does require conscious decision. But by this age you've seen your child consciously decide they want something...whether it's to grab a toy, get to their toes, get their sock off, roll over, what have you. Anyone with a child in this age range has seen their child has a massive capacity to learn. So am I to understand that even though you have watched your child learn to do all of these other things, you don't believe your child is capable of deciding they want to be held? Or is it that you believe for some reason being held constantly is a legitimate need, and that your child is communicating it to you simply for the sake of survival?

    All I'm saying is, you're setting the expectation for your child to be held every time they cry. They believe they are entitled to it because you have always given in to it. Something like this is most definitely a weaning process of course (given the fact that they were constantly held in the womb), but it's your decision when and how to show your child that they do not NEED to be held.

    Do you think every need a baby has is for survival? Because that's a pretty primitive way of looking at it. Yes, I do believe that my baby needs to be held. I believe that she needs it to bond with me, and that sometimes she just needs to be comforted. Do I pick her up every single time she fusses? Nope. Not even close. Lets be real, I also have a three year old and that is just not even an option for me. But when she is lying on the floor screaming her little head off, yes, I believe its because she needs to be soothed.

    I've watched the learning process with my older daughter. I understand fully how it works, but I think you're overestimating the ability of a 3 or 4 month old to reason. Its a much higher process of thinking for a baby to think "I want my mom to hold me. I think I'll cry now". A baby that age understands what they need. Sometimes its stimulation, sometimes its eating, sometimes its soothing.

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    Annelise 3.22.2007 Norah 10.24.2009 Amelia 8.7.2011
  • imagejessicaclare:
    A 6 month old may just be at the start of the age of "manipulation". A 3 or 4 month old isn't even close. 

    I don't know...I'd probably agree with you on the 3 month old, but if developmental milestones can happen over a span of several months, "manipulation" (I can't think of a different word to call it, but again, not a malicious manipulation) could happen over several months as well.

    Not that every book is 100% correct, but I've read several books that have mentioned that babies will, indeed, start to "work" their parents around this time...they're learning cause & effect, and they're seeing the fruits of their actions. 

    if the parents are okay with it,  then that's fine, but if there's a particular behavior that the parents do not want to continue, then at this point, the baby is capable of soothing himself when the parents make the decision to stop responding in the same way.

  • I also want to clarify that I"m talking about the ages up to about 5-6 months. After that, yes, the thought processes are beginning to be there for "manipulation" (I don't care for this word either, but I don't know what other word to use)

    There is plenty of valid research to back up the idea that you simply can't spoil a baby under 6 months of age, regardless of what the old school thinking is. 

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    Annelise 3.22.2007 Norah 10.24.2009 Amelia 8.7.2011
  • imagetigergreen:

    imagejessicaclare:
    A 6 month old may just be at the start of the age of "manipulation". A 3 or 4 month old isn't even close. 

    I don't know...I'd probably agree with you on the 3 month old, but if developmental milestones can happen over a span of several months, "manipulation" (I can't think of a different word to call it, but again, not a malicious manipulation) could happen over several months as well.

    Not that every book is 100% correct, but I've read several books that have mentioned that babies will, indeed, start to "work" their parents around this time...they're learning cause & effect, and they're seeing the fruits of their actions. 

    if the parents are okay with it,  then that's fine, but if there's a particular behavior that the parents do not want to continue, then at this point, the baby is capable of soothing himself when the parents make the decision to stop responding in the same way.

    My personal opinion is 5-6 months that this starts happening, but I"m by no means an expert. Its just what most of the literature I've read has said. I'll meet you in the middle at 4 months, but I really don't think a baby younger than that is capable of "manipulation" (again, such a crappy word to describe this)

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    Annelise 3.22.2007 Norah 10.24.2009 Amelia 8.7.2011
  • Oh no don't get me wrong, babies just like adults have needs that go beyond survival. Our needs for love and companionship and sex can't be disregarded just because we won't die without those things. Neither can a baby's need for comfort.

    There is absolutely a line though. When your child needs to be comforted, you do it. When you have a child who screams each time they are put down, they need to be taught to behave differently. When you have a child who won't go to bed without being rocked or nursed to sleep, they need to be taught to behave differently. All I'm saying is that you, as a parent, are responsible for making the decision of when and how you alter the behavior of your child...and that someone who chooses to address these types of behavior earlier instead of later is not necessarily "neglecting" their child in any way. They are simply setting a boundary and an expectation.

  • imageAnother Jennifer:

    I have major problems with the use of the word "manipulation" with regards to babies.  As you write, manipulation implies a malicious intent.  I don't think it's appropriate to ascribe malicious intent to an infant who isn't develomentally capable of it. 

    I disagree with your argument that babies cry because they don't get what they feel entitled to.  I think babies cry because they have a need and they are "entitled," just as all of us are, to something to help their need.  Also I disagree that this is something that is taught.  I don't think we teach our babies to like being cuddled to sleep.  I think it's instinctual for them to want physical contact from their mothers.  I think the idea that this is taught implies that it can be un-taught that the mother is at fault for "teaching" their LO to want to be cuddled. 

    Fundamentally, I think babies are entitled to be treated with the same respect as adults.  When we need something, we're allowed to get others to help us.  Why can't babies?  

     

    Yes  Totally agree.

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  • The word "manipulation" has too harsh of a connotation.  Most babies when they reach 6 months begin to learn cause and effect.  They learn that if they drop the toy mommy will pick it up.  Or, if they put their hands together it'll make a noise.  Therefore, if they cry they might get picked up.  I also think the term "entitled" is another "harsh" word.  When I think of the word "entitled" or "entitlement" I think of snotty brats who have been spoiled to no end by their parents.  You can't spoil a child up to a certain age therefore I don't believe they are entitled.  Also entitlement, to me, is expecting luxuries from another person.  Being fed, clothed, diapered, and comforted are NOT luxuries.  They are a necessity for a baby especially since they can't do it on their own.
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  • imagebethlhurn:


    There is absolutely a line though. When your child needs to be comforted, you do it. When you have a child who screams each time they are put down, they need to be taught to behave differently. When you have a child who won't go to bed without being rocked or nursed to sleep, they need to be taught to behave differently. All I'm saying is that you, as a parent, are responsible for making the decision of when and how you alter the behavior of your child...and that someone who chooses to address these types of behavior earlier instead of later is not necessarily "neglecting" their child in any way. They are simply setting a boundary and an expectation.

     

    I won't go so far as to say that it's "neglect" but in my opinion there is something wrong with addressing certain types of behaviors when the child isn't developmentally capable of changing the behavior.  Some behaviors can't be altered until the child develops more.  Take, STTN, for example...back when we were on 0-3, we all stressed out about how our LOs weren't STTN and wondered what we could do to get more sleep.  Well, basically our LO's tummies got bigger and it became possible for them to sleep longer without getting hungry.  The behavior was altered, not by something we did, but instead by a physical change in our LOs.  

    I guess I just don't see what's wrong with a baby needing to be rocked to fall asleep.  I think other moms just assume that there's a problem with that but I don't see it.  If mom's not getting any sleep then I agree that it's a problem since sleep deprivation is terrible for the mom and baby.  But my nighttime parenting of my LO doesn't deprive me of sleep.  I'll give her what she needs (and I think that it's need at this age - she's not old to distinguish between needs and wants yet) now and I'm 100% sure that I won't be cuddling her to sleep when she's 15.  Okay she's "dependent" on me but she's a baby so she's supposed to be dependent on me.  

     

  • imagebethlhurn:

    When you have a child who won't go to bed without being rocked or nursed to sleep, they need to be taught to behave differently.

    I don't get this at all.  I rock my baby to sleep.  Why wouldn't I?  As an adult I can't fall asleep without some sort of routine.  Why would it be any different for a baby?  Sure, the assistance I use for falling asleep doesn't require involvement from other people, but until LO can read a book or drink some hot tea, he needs my help.  He's not manipulating me, he  just is asking for his needs to be met just like I make sure my own needs are met.

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  • imagesmilelari:

    imagebethlhurn:

    When you have a child who won't go to bed without being rocked or nursed to sleep, they need to be taught to behave differently.

    I don't get this at all.  I rock my baby to sleep.  Why wouldn't I?  As an adult I can't fall asleep without some sort of routine.  Why would it be any different for a baby?  Sure, the assistance I use for falling asleep doesn't require involvement from other people, but until LO can read a book or drink some hot tea, he needs my help.  He's not manipulating me, he  just is asking for his needs to be met just like I make sure my own needs are met.

    You know, you're completely right...this is an opinion. It really depends on what you're willing to do as a parent, and what behaviors you want your child to learn. Personally, I would want my son to learn to fall asleep on his own...not without proper routine and consistency, but without someone needing to actually make him fall asleep.

    routine is fantastic and children thrive on schedules. I'm not saying just throw them in the crib and close the door. Like anyone, a baby needs a proper cue to switch modes to bedtime.

    I just personally think that in the long run, a child should be able to have their bath, listen to a song or story, get a kiss and go to sleep. The earlier they learn the skill of closing their eyes and drifting off on their own, the easier I believe it will be for them in the future. It's a valuable, lifelong skill.

  • imagebethlhurn:

    You know, you're completely right...this is an opinion. It really depends on what you're willing to do as a parent, and what behaviors you want your child to learn. Personally, I would want my son to learn to fall asleep on his own...not without proper routine and consistency, but without someone needing to actually make him fall asleep.

    routine is fantastic and children thrive on schedules. I'm not saying just throw them in the crib and close the door. Like anyone, a baby needs a proper cue to switch modes to bedtime.

    I just personally think that in the long run, a child should be able to have their bath, listen to a song or story, get a kiss and go to sleep. The earlier they learn the skill of closing their eyes and drifting off on their own, the easier I believe it will be for them in the future. It's a valuable, lifelong skill.

     

    Again this is the part I don't get.  Do you believe that your LO won't learn to fall asleep on his own if you don't teach him?  Do you know any adults who are unable to fall asleep on their own?  Any adults who need mommy to rock them to sleep?  And I don't get your argument that it's better to learn it early when they're not really capable of learning it at this age. 

     

  • imagejessicaclare:

    I disagree. Manipulation implies that a CONSCIOUS decision was made. That requires a higher order of reasoning that a small baby just doesn't have. Do they try to get you to do what they want? Sure. But that's because all they know is what they need, and those needs have to be met. Its not the same as an older baby/child simply WANTING to be held.

     

    This times a million.  I have a bachelors degree in infant and child development.  A toddler can manipulate you.  My four month old cannot. 

    If I put him down and he fusses, then I pick him up and he's happy, he did not manipulate me into picking him up.  He just wanted to be held.  Babies are not that smart.

    If you read Happiest Baby on the Block, the doctor explains how when an infant cries, it's more like they're talking to themselves, expressing to themselves, "I'm bored," or "I'm hungry."  Not, "I better cry so my mom comes and does what I want her to." 

    Everyone gets to choose how they wish to parent.  I choose to answer his fusses and cries. 

  • And FTR -- I am not an expert, but I did spend four long years studying this.  For babies, their focus is getting their needs met.  That's it.  Plain and simple. 
  • imageAnother Jennifer:
    imagebethlhurn:

    You know, you're completely right...this is an opinion. It really depends on what you're willing to do as a parent, and what behaviors you want your child to learn. Personally, I would want my son to learn to fall asleep on his own...not without proper routine and consistency, but without someone needing to actually make him fall asleep.

    routine is fantastic and children thrive on schedules. I'm not saying just throw them in the crib and close the door. Like anyone, a baby needs a proper cue to switch modes to bedtime.

    I just personally think that in the long run, a child should be able to have their bath, listen to a song or story, get a kiss and go to sleep. The earlier they learn the skill of closing their eyes and drifting off on their own, the easier I believe it will be for them in the future. It's a valuable, lifelong skill.

     

    Again this is the part I don't get.  Do you believe that your LO won't learn to fall asleep on his own if you don't teach him?  Do you know any adults who are unable to fall asleep on their own?  Any adults who need mommy to rock them to sleep?  And I don't get your argument that it's better to learn it early when they're not really capable of learning it at this age. 

     

    I don't believe LO won't learn to fall asleep on his own if I don't teach him. I do believe it's valuable to learn to do it early so that you have a sense of independence and can sleep when and however you want. I'm not necessarily saying that it's "better" to learn it early. I'm just saying that yes, they are capable of learning this early, and that it's a parenting decision whether or not to teach them.

    Come on...you've seen how easily and quickly your baby can learn to do so many complex things...I think saying they're not capable of learning something as simple as going to sleep is wildly presumptuous, and unmistakably and underestimation of your child's skills. 

  • jshfjshf member
    imagebethlhurn:
    imageAnother Jennifer:
    imagebethlhurn:

    You know, you're completely right...this is an opinion. It really depends on what you're willing to do as a parent, and what behaviors you want your child to learn. Personally, I would want my son to learn to fall asleep on his own...not without proper routine and consistency, but without someone needing to actually make him fall asleep.

    routine is fantastic and children thrive on schedules. I'm not saying just throw them in the crib and close the door. Like anyone, a baby needs a proper cue to switch modes to bedtime.

    I just personally think that in the long run, a child should be able to have their bath, listen to a song or story, get a kiss and go to sleep. The earlier they learn the skill of closing their eyes and drifting off on their own, the easier I believe it will be for them in the future. It's a valuable, lifelong skill.

     

    Again this is the part I don't get.  Do you believe that your LO won't learn to fall asleep on his own if you don't teach him?  Do you know any adults who are unable to fall asleep on their own?  Any adults who need mommy to rock them to sleep?  And I don't get your argument that it's better to learn it early when they're not really capable of learning it at this age. 

     

    I don't believe LO won't learn to fall asleep on his own if I don't teach him. I do believe it's valuable to learn to do it early so that you have a sense of independence and can sleep when and however you want. I'm not necessarily saying that it's "better" to learn it early. I'm just saying that yes, they are capable of learning this early, and that it's a parenting decision whether or not to teach them.

    Come on...you've seen how easily and quickly your baby can learn to do so many complex things...I think saying they're not capable of learning something as simple as going to sleep is wildly presumptuous, and unmistakably and underestimation of your child's skills. 

    Babies are very quick learners and I'm sure LO can get to sleep by the CIO method.  But the reason docs  don't recommend sleep training until they are between 4-6 months old is that their sleep cycles don't mature and resemble adult patterns until then.  Their tummies are also developing, so they usually wake up at least once to eat.  Now every baby is different, so maybe your LO doesn't need to wake, doesn't need as much help falling asleep, etc.  But a lot of what you do as a parent depends on the personality and needs of your baby as well as your parenting style.  DS would sleep great on his tummy, but because of SIDS, we put him to sleep on his back.  So in order to get him to sleep on his back, I had to do a lot more rocking, soothing, etc.  And yes, now he is used to that, but I'd much rather do all of that and him sleep safer.  

    Anyways.  Whether or not LO is manipulating at this point, I hope you enjoy just being loved by LO and loving him back! 


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  • imagebethlhurn:
    imagebethlhurn:

    I just personally think that in the long run, a child should be able to have their bath, listen to a song or story, get a kiss and go to sleep. The earlier they learn the skill of closing their eyes and drifting off on their own, the easier I believe it will be for them in the future. It's a valuable, lifelong skill.

    I don't believe LO won't learn to fall asleep on his own if I don't teach him. I do believe it's valuable to learn to do it early so that you have a sense of independence and can sleep when and however you want. I'm not necessarily saying that it's "better" to learn it early. I'm just saying that yes, they are capable of learning this early, and that it's a parenting decision whether or not to teach them.

    Come on...you've seen how easily and quickly your baby can learn to do so many complex things...I think saying they're not capable of learning something as simple as going to sleep is wildly presumptuous, and unmistakably and underestimation of your child's skills. 

    I understand that it is a parenting decision about when to teach your child certain things, and this whole post is written in generalities.

    I'm just here to tell you that a child can learn to fall asleep on their own.  As a parent, I set up a routine and a framework within which my child could fall asleep - bedtime routine and bedtime.  But I never taught my daughter how to fall asleep.  I rocked and/or nursed her to sleep for as long as she needed.  And at 10.5 months she was able to fall asleep on her own, in her own bed.

    My 10 month old DS can't fall asleep on his own yet, but I have faith that it is something he'll be able to learn to do when he's mature enough and ready.  This is such a relatively short period in my kids lives that I don't have a problem with responding to their reasonable needs.  I think crying to be held is responding to a need.  And I think my job as the parent of an infant or toddler is to teach them that I will be here for them when they need me.  In the blink of an eye they will be so old that they won't want to cuddle with me any more.

    And I honestly don't even think my 3 year old is capable of "manipulation" in the way that we define it as adults.  Sure, she tests LOTS of boundaries to see how we respond.  But that is how she learns to deal with the world around her.  She is still learning about how emotions work and lots of other more cognitive issues.  What may seem like manipulation to someone not used to dealing with toddlers is actually no different than the baby dropping their spoon over and over off the side of the high chair.  An emotionally innocent act of learning how mommy and daddy react, not a mental game of trying to drive the parent crazy.

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  • imagebethlhurn:
    imageAnother Jennifer:
    imagebethlhurn:

    You know, you're completely right...this is an opinion. It really depends on what you're willing to do as a parent, and what behaviors you want your child to learn. Personally, I would want my son to learn to fall asleep on his own...not without proper routine and consistency, but without someone needing to actually make him fall asleep.

    routine is fantastic and children thrive on schedules. I'm not saying just throw them in the crib and close the door. Like anyone, a baby needs a proper cue to switch modes to bedtime.

    I just personally think that in the long run, a child should be able to have their bath, listen to a song or story, get a kiss and go to sleep. The earlier they learn the skill of closing their eyes and drifting off on their own, the easier I believe it will be for them in the future. It's a valuable, lifelong skill.

     

    Again this is the part I don't get.  Do you believe that your LO won't learn to fall asleep on his own if you don't teach him?  Do you know any adults who are unable to fall asleep on their own?  Any adults who need mommy to rock them to sleep?  And I don't get your argument that it's better to learn it early when they're not really capable of learning it at this age. 

     

    I don't believe LO won't learn to fall asleep on his own if I don't teach him. I do believe it's valuable to learn to do it early so that you have a sense of independence and can sleep when and however you want. I'm not necessarily saying that it's "better" to learn it early. I'm just saying that yes, they are capable of learning this early, and that it's a parenting decision whether or not to teach them.

    Come on...you've seen how easily and quickly your baby can learn to do so many complex things...I think saying they're not capable of learning something as simple as going to sleep is wildly presumptuous, and unmistakably and underestimation of your child's skills. 

    It isn't about underestimating an infant's "skills", it is about nurturing and attachment. About responding to a child's needs. Sure, an infant will eventually cry itself to sleep if you leave him  alone in a room. But he will also learn that Mommy and Daddy aren't willing to respond to his needs.

    So your point is silly and potentially damaging to an infant.

     

    image
  • imageorleyl:
    I was just saying the other day, how dd is manipulating me bc she cries when she is put in her crib and as soon as even go in there and she sees me, she smiles and laughs. I was like u little manipulator. They learn that their behaviors cause responses, tears= mommy taking me out of the crib. But I will let her manipulate me bc its okay if she wants to manipulate me to hold her and rock her for ten minutes back to bed. There will probably be a line in the future, but for now it works.

    This exactly.  I just said to DH last night (and pardon my French) when LO was put in her crib and started "crying"- she's f-ing with us!  Her cries were like "wa wa... pause (did they hear me yet?)... wa wa .... pause (any steps in the hallway)??"  And they I go in her room and she giggles.  Same thing with coughing sometimes- she knows that if she makes a cough sound she gets instant attention, so she fake coughs :)

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  • imagebethlhurn:

    Oh no don't get me wrong, babies just like adults have needs that go beyond survival. Our needs for love and companionship and sex can't be disregarded just because we won't die without those things. Neither can a baby's need for comfort.

    There is absolutely a line though. When your child needs to be comforted, you do it. When you have a child who screams each time they are put down, they need to be taught to behave differently. When you have a child who won't go to bed without being rocked or nursed to sleep, they need to be taught to behave differently. All I'm saying is that you, as a parent, are responsible for making the decision of when and how you alter the behavior of your child...and that someone who chooses to address these types of behavior earlier instead of later is not necessarily "neglecting" their child in any way. They are simply setting a boundary and an expectation.

    I think that this is where you go wrong. It's not the behavior that you need to address, its the need behind it. A baby's behavior isn't a choice, isn't premeditated, it's the baby's automatic response to a need. 

    I do agree that a parent can create a need (not a feeling of entitlement, but a need) -creating a good routine does this also- and then its up to the parent to "fix" if/when needed.  But if my baby screams when he's put in the crib because he learned to need the swing (my fault), I have no interest in teaching him to not to "misbehave"/scream, but I do want to help him learn to not need the swing to sleep.  If I see his screaming as a behavior and not a response, how can I respond appropriately?  To treat a need like a behavior is cruel

    imageBaby Birthday Ticker TickerBaby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • babies ARE entitled to holding and rocking and any other form of comfort. 
  • This post makes me so sad for your LO. You said so yourself, you are not and expert, you have limited experience, so why are you propagating the idea of neglecting babies?   I think you can do less damage 'indulging' your baby than you can neglecting your baby in your selfish attempt at convenience or the imaginary power struggle between a baby (with limited brain capacity) and a grown adult.

    Babies have mommies because they can't do anything for themselves! They can't feed themselves, they can't clean themselves, they can't clothe themselves, they can't soothe themselves, and on and on.  They cry because they expect their mommies to meet these needs. That is not manipulation---that is called P-A-R-E-N-T-I-N-G---they are entitled to it! Beyond these basic needs, and perhaps more important to the baby is the need to feel loved, so hold/kiss/rock your baby as much as possible you may end up creating a loving adult in the process.


     

  • I bet there are a ton of families who would love to adopt your baby and meet the needs you seem to think are worthless. It would relieve you of the inconvenience of parenting and make things so much easier on you.
  • imagem_and_m:
    I bet there are a ton of families who would love to adopt your baby and meet the needs you seem to think are worthless. It would relieve you of the inconvenience of parenting and make things so much easier on you.

    COMPLETELY uncalled for and totally low class.  Even for the Bump.  You should be ashamed--seriously.  

  • imageMel12880:

    This exactly.  I just said to DH last night (and pardon my French) when LO was put in her crib and started "crying"- she's f-ing with us!  Her cries were like "wa wa... pause (did they hear me yet?)... wa wa .... pause (any steps in the hallway)??"  And they I go in her room and she giggles.  Same thing with coughing sometimes- she knows that if she makes a cough sound she gets instant attention, so she fake coughs :)

    You think your 5 month old "fakes" coughs?  Seriously??? 

  • imageAnother Jennifer:
    imageMel12880:

    This exactly.  I just said to DH last night (and pardon my French) when LO was put in her crib and started "crying"- she's f-ing with us!  Her cries were like "wa wa... pause (did they hear me yet?)... wa wa .... pause (any steps in the hallway)??"  And they I go in her room and she giggles.  Same thing with coughing sometimes- she knows that if she makes a cough sound she gets instant attention, so she fake coughs :)

    You think your 5 month old "fakes" coughs?  Seriously??? 

    My kid fake coughs.  I don't think he's doing it to "manipulate" but he definitly does it.  I think he just likes the noise it makes.  It's no different to him than blowing rasberries or random pteradactyl screaming.  It's just an interesting noise he can make.

    As for PP's kid, it makes sense to me that he would continue to make a noise that gets attention.  DS knows that if he makes a happy scream/squeal we will laugh, so he does it again. 

  • imageSamsMom91:

    imagem_and_m:
    I bet there are a ton of families who would love to adopt your baby and meet the needs you seem to think are worthless. It would relieve you of the inconvenience of parenting and make things so much easier on you.

    COMPLETELY uncalled for and totally low class.  Even for the Bump.  You should be ashamed--seriously.  

    THIS.  

    for everyone who's saying that she thinks her child's needs are worthless (which of course isn't the case), it could just as easily be said that those of you who aren't willing to draw the line are simply enabling your children to grow up to be spoiled brats who think anytime they say "jump," their parents are supposed to ask "how high?"

    of course i'm exaggerating the point, but my unpop-op for the day is that, i solidly believe that unless parents begin drawing lines in the sand with their kids at ages younger than 1-2 years old, it becomes easier and easier to extend this "baby-led" philosophy into the rest of their early childhood, which is NOT good for the child.  there are tons of books that state this exactly.

    that mindset carries bad consequences with it that kids will carry throughout the rest of their lives. as far as bedtime goes, if they don't learn good sleep habits as babies, they WILL have trouble falling asleep on their own as children and adults.  for example, everyone knows someone who battles insomnia, or it takes them an hour to fall asleep after going to bed when their partner can konk out the minute their head hits the pillow.  many times, this is how it's been for these people since they were kids.

    no one's advocating plopping a baby in a crib without hugs, kisses, cuddles, stories, whatever routine you have determined works for your house.  but to think that your 4-6 month old isn't capable of soothing themselves and falling asleep on their own is incorrect.  if they haven't learned that ability by the time they're 7 or 8 months, it's because they haven't HAD to learn it, and that will be a lot worse to deal with the older they get.  no baby is going to have psychological damage because they had to cry for 30 minutes.  it's always harder on the parent than the baby.

    babies our kids' age are learning cause & effect. if you want them to continue whatever behavior they have, then keep doing what you're doing, & be happy with your decision. 

    if you want part of their behavior to change, it's up to you, the parent, to do just that...PARENT.  guide them in the way you want them to go.  

  • imagetigergreen:
    imageSamsMom91:

    imagem_and_m:
    I bet there are a ton of families who would love to adopt your baby and meet the needs you seem to think are worthless. It would relieve you of the inconvenience of parenting and make things so much easier on you.

    COMPLETELY uncalled for and totally low class.  Even for the Bump.  You should be ashamed--seriously.  

    THIS.  

    for everyone who's saying that she thinks her child's needs are worthless (which of course isn't the case), it could just as easily be said that those of you who aren't willing to draw the line are simply enabling your children to grow up to be spoiled brats who think anytime they say "jump," their parents are supposed to ask "how high?"

    of course i'm exaggerating the point, but my unpop-op for the day is that, i solidly believe that unless parents begin drawing lines in the sand with their kids at ages younger than 1-2 years old, it becomes easier and easier to extend this "baby-led" philosophy into the rest of their early childhood, which is NOT good for the child.  there are tons of books that state this exactly.

    that mindset carries bad consequences with it that kids will carry throughout the rest of their lives. as far as bedtime goes, if they don't learn good sleep habits as babies, they WILL have trouble falling asleep on their own as children and adults.  for example, everyone knows someone who battles insomnia, or it takes them an hour to fall asleep after going to bed when their partner can konk out the minute their head hits the pillow.  many times, this is how it's been for these people since they were kids.

    no one's advocating plopping a baby in a crib without hugs, kisses, cuddles, stories, whatever routine you have determined works for your house.  but to think that your 4-6 month old isn't capable of soothing themselves and falling asleep on their own is incorrect.  if they haven't learned that ability by the time they're 7 or 8 months, it's because they haven't HAD to learn it, and that will be a lot worse to deal with the older they get.  no baby is going to have psychological damage because they had to cry for 30 minutes.  it's always harder on the parent than the baby.

    babies our kids' age are learning cause & effect. if you want them to continue whatever behavior they have, then keep doing what you're doing, & be happy with your decision. 

    if you want part of their behavior to change, it's up to you, the parent, to do just that...PARENT.  guide them in the way you want them to go.  

    This is perhaps the most intelligent post I've read thus far on the Bump.  It is good to know that there are other mothers out there who feel this way.  Babies are as different as the parents that raise them.  Please do not judge a mother by her parenting techniques as long as she is meeting the needs of her child.  

    I still can't believe that PP suggested that OP should give her child up for adoption.  Suggesting that OP is somehow unworthy of being a parent, that her LO "inconveniences" her is still so offensive to me, I am upset just typing this.    

  • imageAnother Jennifer:
    imageMel12880:

    This exactly.  I just said to DH last night (and pardon my French) when LO was put in her crib and started "crying"- she's f-ing with us!  Her cries were like "wa wa... pause (did they hear me yet?)... wa wa .... pause (any steps in the hallway)??"  And they I go in her room and she giggles.  Same thing with coughing sometimes- she knows that if she makes a cough sound she gets instant attention, so she fake coughs :)

    You think your 5 month old "fakes" coughs?  Seriously??? 

    Um...faking coughs is a pretty typical developmental thing. You didn't know that? Seriously????????????? Confused

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  • It's making a noise, not "faking."  Faking implies an intent to deceive and no 3-6 month odl baby is developed enough to intend to deceive. 

     

     

  • imageAnother Jennifer:

    It's making a noise, not "faking."  Faking implies an intent to deceive and no 3-6 month odl baby is developed enough to intend to deceive. 

     

     

    Semantics. The baby is purposely making a "coughing" noise, because she wants to see if she'll get a response. While "faking" might not be the exact right word, I find it hard to believe you didn't understand what the OP meant. Your "seriously???" was just silly.

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