Mayo's next week...and I had an epiphany — The Bump
Special Needs

Mayo's next week...and I had an epiphany

So DS2 has a big speech delay. BUT he's starting trying more words. I say words, I mean, he has more "B"+a vowel. Those are the only things we hear. B sound and a vowel. So I'm thinking about it the other day. And I realize.... we have never heard these sounds: D, S (as a single sound yes but not with anything else), T, G, L, N, C, R and some others. But my epiphany was....DS makes no sound in which he would have to manipulate his tongue. He can stick his tongue out. But only in a downward manner. What do you think?

(And he still drools like crazy some days, even tho he has all of his teeth)

Blake 04/29/05 Will 06/12/07 Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker

Re: Mayo's next week...and I had an epiphany

  • I have no idea... but it is THESE kinds of observations that really separate the cream of the crop! Great job! I hope you get some good responses.
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  • My DD cant stick her tounge out straight and it is also more  downward  and she is tounge tied so it might have something to do with it 
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  • image mylove2005:
    My DD cant stick her tounge out straight and it is also more  downward  and she is tounge tied so it might have something to do with it 

    I'll put that on my "List of Mayo questions/comments" page that I've started already. :) Thanks!

    Blake 04/29/05 Will 06/12/07 Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • P and M are made with the lips closing as B is made, so those are early sounds as well.  The only difference between B and P is that P is whispered (no voicing) and B is voiced.  The difference between M and B is that the air is prolonged and comes through your nose for M and is a burst out of your mouth for B.

    D, T, and N are also early developing sounds with the same differences.  D is to B as T is to P and N is to M - does that make sense.  These sounds are made with the tip of the tongue raising to meet the bumpy ridge behind the upper teeth.  Good observation regarding tongue elevation.

    K, and G are also early sounds with the back of the tongue raising to meet the roof of your mouth.  K is voiceless, G is voiced.  They are both plosive sounds.

    W, Y, and H are other first sounds you make want to focus more on.

    L, R, blends (CH, SH, TH) and often S and Z are sounds you will hear after the others are masterd

    I don't know if this info was anything you were interested in!!!  

    Try to elicit tongue tip elevation by putting toothpaste, peanut butter, or something else with a similar consistency that he likes on your child's top lip (between nose and lip) and see if he can reach up with his tongue to get it off.  Using a mirror may help him see what he is doing.

    Can he click his tongue?  puff cheeks?  pucker lips? and move tongue side to side imitatively?  lick his lips in a circle (all of the way down, side, and up)? 

  • image susanmosley:

    P and M are made with the lips closing as B is made, so those are early sounds as well.  The only difference between B and P is that P is whispered (no voicing) and B is voiced.  The difference between M and B is that the air is prolonged and comes through your nose for M and is a burst out of your mouth for B.(I did know this...he only uses 'M' for 'Mo'/more. Almost all other words begin with the B sound. 'Straw' is 'Baw' for example)

    D, T, and N are also early developing sounds with the same differences.  D is to B as T is to P and N is to M - does that make sense.  These sounds are made with the tip of the tongue raising to meet the bumpy ridge behind the upper teeth.  Good observation regarding tongue elevation. (He does not use D/T/N at all. Never heard them.)

    K, and G are also early sounds with the back of the tongue raising to meet the roof of your mouth.  K is voiceless, G is voiced.  They are both plosive sounds.(Heard these one time, many months ago. Never again.)

    W, Y, and H are other first sounds you make want to focus more on.(Uses 'w' for the word 'wawa'(water) but no 'y' or 'h'. His 'yes' has always and forever been just '-ss'. 'Hi' is '-i(long sound) and 'hat' is '-a(like the a in hat) Most words are just voweled)

    L, R, blends (CH, SH, TH) and often S and Z are sounds you will hear after the others are masterd (Tries to say "bla" for blake, but his tongue is already out of his mouth before he starts the word, is that makes sense) (s was his first sound/attempt at 'yes')

    I don't know if this info was anything you were interested in!!!  Yes thank you!

    Try to elicit tongue tip elevation by putting toothpaste, peanut butter, or something else with a similar consistency that he likes on your child's top lip (between nose and lip) and see if he can reach up with his tongue to get it off.  Using a mirror may help him see what he is doing.

    Can he click his tongue?  NO puff cheeks? NO pucker lips? NO. A couple months ago we finally got him to close his mouth to give kisses, and we still have to remind him to do this. He still gives open mouth kisses. But he does not pucker and he blows (like on food) by almost shaping his lips in an M shape and blowing more downward.

    and move tongue side to side imitatively?  NO lick his lips in a circle (all of the way down, side, and up)? NO. He can stick out his tongue, but mostly it goes over his bottom lip. Nothing up and nothing to the side. Our first ST (we just moved) would do exercises putting things behind his top teeth and on his upper lip like this. She was concerned about low tone in his face. Our new SLP does nothing like this.

    Blake 04/29/05 Will 06/12/07 Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • image ILoveBoys:
    image susanmosley:

    Can he click his tongue?  NO puff cheeks? NO pucker lips? NO. A couple months ago we finally got him to close his mouth to give kisses, and we still have to remind him to do this. He still gives open mouth kisses. But he does not pucker and he blows (like on food) by almost shaping his lips in an M shape and blowing more downward.

    and move tongue side to side imitatively?  NO lick his lips in a circle (all of the way down, side, and up)? NO. He can stick out his tongue, but mostly it goes over his bottom lip. Nothing up and nothing to the side. Our first ST (we just moved) would do exercises putting things behind his top teeth and on his upper lip like this. She was concerned about low tone in his face. Our new SLP does nothing like this.

     Another SLP piping in...has your new SLP said anything about oral motor weakness, or have you mentioned anything to her about your concerns?  If you haven't or she hasn't, I definitely would...it's hard to say without actually seeing your DS, but from what you've described it definitely sounds like he's got some oral motor weakness/hypotonia that should probably be addressed. 

    In the meantime, has he tried to drink from a straw at all?  Straws can be a great way to help kids work on the motor planning needed to pucker/round their lips, as are whistles.  If he likes applesauce or pudding, you could try having him suck one of those up through a straw-it really makes the kiddo work hard and is hard to do without some sort of a lip pucker.  To help him get the idea of moving his tongue all around his lips (not just on the bottom), you could put pretty much anything flavored, around his mouth near the lip line and show him how to lick it off...I've found things like pudding, peanut butter, cake icing, yogurt, etc. work well.  I know those things aren't healthy, so really anything your DS likes that has a similar kind of consistency would do the job.

    It sounds like you've definitely got some concerns about his oral motor strength, so hopefully you can get your SLP on board.  GL!

  • Really just lurking on this post, you SLPs are awesome!!!
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  • image OSULori:
    image ILoveBoys:
    image susanmosley:

    Can he click his tongue?  NO puff cheeks? NO pucker lips? NO. A couple months ago we finally got him to close his mouth to give kisses, and we still have to remind him to do this. He still gives open mouth kisses. But he does not pucker and he blows (like on food) by almost shaping his lips in an M shape and blowing more downward.

    and move tongue side to side imitatively?  NO lick his lips in a circle (all of the way down, side, and up)? NO. He can stick out his tongue, but mostly it goes over his bottom lip. Nothing up and nothing to the side. Our first ST (we just moved) would do exercises putting things behind his top teeth and on his upper lip like this. She was concerned about low tone in his face. Our new SLP does nothing like this.

     Another SLP piping in...has your new SLP said anything about oral motor weakness, or have you mentioned anything to her about your concerns?  If you haven't or she hasn't, I definitely would...it's hard to say without actually seeing your DS, but from what you've described it definitely sounds like he's got some oral motor weakness/hypotonia that should probably be addressed. 

    In the meantime, has he tried to drink from a straw at all?  Straws can be a great way to help kids work on the motor planning needed to pucker/round their lips, as are whistles.  If he likes applesauce or pudding, you could try having him suck one of those up through a straw-it really makes the kiddo work hard and is hard to do without some sort of a lip pucker.  To help him get the idea of moving his tongue all around his lips (not just on the bottom), you could put pretty much anything flavored, around his mouth near the lip line and show him how to lick it off...I've found things like pudding, peanut butter, cake icing, yogurt, etc. work well.  I know those things aren't healthy, so really anything your DS likes that has a similar kind of consistency would do the job.

    It sounds like you've definitely got some concerns about his oral motor strength, so hopefully you can get your SLP on board.  GL!

     The new SLP has been concerned that he is still drooling from time to time, yes. She is "anxious to see what Mayo says". In her own words. He has used straws since about 11 mos old. He moved to a cup about 2 1/2 mos ago, and uses lots of straws. The only time he gets a sippy, it's more of like a sports bottle type sippy, where you have to actively suck on the round top to get anything out.

    Blake 04/29/05 Will 06/12/07 Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • It attempt to write a short response..

    it could be weakness, or it could be coordination/motor planning.  He may not be able to get the signal from his brain to his mouth.  How is his fine motor imitation?  It is debatable if oral motor exercises are successful in developing strength in the mouth.  But it doesn't hurt to try.  It is less debatable that oral motor exercises will help with coordination/motor planning issues.  So, his SLP should probably be at least trying these types of exercises.  However, she may have a good reason that she isn't doing it (yet).  Meanwhile, you really can't do it wrong.  You seem to be pretty knowledgeable and clearly have identified that he can't elevate his tongue, thus can not produce a lot of sounds.  So, do the oral motor stuff at home with him - keep it fun and up beat and praise his attention and willingness to try even if nothing changes, i.e. his tongue still just goes down.  The more he has to try to send the signal from brain to mouth, the better the connection will get (assuming it is coordination, not weakness).  Again, if it is weakness, it doesn't hurt anything to do it anyway.  

    I have seriously worked on this exact issue with a few kids (couldn't coordinate tongue elevation without speech sounds (much less in speech)) for weeks -using popsicle sticks to raise their tongues, mirrors, demonstrating, gloved hands to manipulate their tongues, etc  - and then one day, it happens.  

    GL and I too will be interested to hear what Mayo says! ;) 

  • Thank you all for your replies and suggestions. I welcome all I can get! Tuesday we meet w/consulting pedi, developmental pediatrician, have an audiogram done, speech eval and hearing screening. Wednesday he has his MRI under general sedation. Thursday is his EEG. (if they think they need it?) Friday we go over results/tentative diagnosis with the consulting pediatrician in the AM. Then we are done. I'll let you all know how it goes.
    Blake 04/29/05 Will 06/12/07 Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
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