August 2017 Moms

Everything You didn't want to know about Pregnancy, Birth & Postpartum: STM to FTM advice

Hey all! Shamelessly stole this gem from Dec16, but reading thru theirs, there are so many little and big things that us STMs know now but probably wished someone would have told us back in the day... SOO.. ladies impart your wisdom, and FTMs ask away - nothing, and I swear nothing, is too wierd/stupid or gross to ask! 
sharjam6
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Re: Everything You didn't want to know about Pregnancy, Birth & Postpartum: STM to FTM advice

  • Love this idea!
    BabyFruit Ticker
    BabyFeld
  • I answered this on a bmb recently... I'll go dig up my answers when I'm not mobile later.

    Also, FTMs, feel free to ask any questions that you want, nothing is off limits.  Labor, babies, whatever.  
    DS1: Born 11.18.15
    DS2: EDD- 09.08.17

    Babysizer Cravings Pregnancy Tracker
  • IncandescentIncandescent member
    250 Love Its 100 Comments First Anniversary Name Dropper
    edited January 17
    This will be our fourth, but I have a question. All of them have been vaginal births. With this last baby I lost quite a lot of blood after and while pushing out the placenta. I'm worried about this. Will it be worse this time? Did anyone bleed more than they liked? Eta: they being your nurses
  • Don't be afraid of en epidural. I took the child birthing classes, and they freaked me out. A tube in my spine?! What?! It was TOTALLY fine and I'm not usually very brave when it comes to that stuff.


    Adult diapers are the BEST for postpartum. Seriously. Don't feel any kind of way about it. It will save you a lot of stained clothes and sheets.


    TAKE THE CONTIPATION MEDS! The first #2 after baby is SCARY! Don't make it harder on yourself by not taking the medicine they offer you. If it's Colace, I would go ahead and take all 3 of the pills at once instead of throughout the day.


    Even though you will, don't beat yourself up over breastfeeding. There are ALL kinds of things that you don't anticipate when  you talk about breastfeeding, and IT IS HARD! If you find it to be a stressful experience, STOP! Or ask for help. Your baby needs you happy and healthy. Don't let breastfeeding be the thing that makes you stressed.


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    themrsBabyFeldMotherBunnySalsera2.0
  • @Incandescent
    I had a post pardom bleed one week after I had my daughter (1st child)
    Its was my first day home alone with her. I went to the bathroom, passed a huge clot and then blood just started pouring out of me. I called 911, then my husband. The ambulance took me to the hospital where I had emergency surgery and I nearly needed a hysterectomy. They found a small piece of my placenta had not detached and my body was trying to eject it. I needed a blood transfusion and was in the hospital for another week. 

    I've asked a million questions to my doctor about this time because I was traumatized. She said they have it in my notes to watch me extra close and do extra massage etc after birth. But I'm still nervous about it.
    I had a good pregnancy (aside from 24-7 sickness) and super fast and uneventful labor and delivery. 
  • @belmont1785 how scary!! How far did you live from the hospital? 
  • @belmont1785 that's terrifying! Hemorrhage is my #1 fear about birth (I'm a FTM)
    ooopaola
  • Love this thread!
  • FTM here! love all your help and calming words, ladies.

    I was raised in a home where my mom could produce milk like a darn cow. She BF all of us until we were 2. Obviously she was anti-formula and had every right to be with how much she could produce. I am super sensitive and know that BF is not in my cards, but I am praying I can exclusively pump still for a year. I feel like she will be disappointed in me if I have to resort to formula. Is formula found to be just as good as BM now a days?

    Regarding PP recovery time, how long should I assume I will need DH around? He has 4 weeks of vacation and can work from home for a week. I asked him to use 2 weeks vacation and then work from home the 3rd week and he said I was crazy for thinking I needed him that much. He thinks since I can care for babies like a pro that he won't be needed but we have no clue what kind of physical condition I will be in. I mean, am I bed-ridden for 3 weeks PP after a natural birth (hoping for vaginal, anyway)?

    @BabyFeld ain't that the truth though! I feel like 10-20 years ago people's DD were spot on. Now they are so far off. SIL is getting married 1 month after my EDD so I hope to be earlier than later so all my internal jazz can shrink down a little more in the for the wedding. Her wedding pics will be all over everyone's house since at our wedding 2 years ago she didn't have her baby (first grandchild in the family) and FBIL and her were on a break. So our wedding pics are nowhere but these will be plastered all over MIL's house. Ugh I don't want to see my "fluffy" self for the next 10 years :( Any tips on getting it all shrunken down quickly? Or just Spanx that sh*t? lol

    BabyFruit Ticker
    BabyFeld
  • @Incandescent @belmont1785 I hemorrhaged on the table during my csection and was monitored closely for many hours following the delivery. Since I'm so early in this pregnancy, I haven't discussed it with my doctor yet. A friend of mine has hemorrhaged during both of her vaginal births and has been offered a csection if they want to have a third child to try and prevent the hemorrhaging. 

    ***TW in Siggy***
    Me: 33 / DH: 32
    Married: Nov 2011
    TTC #1: Jan 2013, BFP Sept 2013, DD: June 2014
    TTC #2: Aug 2016, BFP Nov 2016, EDD: August 2017
    BabyFetus Ticker




  • @budzynb don't let anyone, mom included, make you feel like less because you aren't doing what she would do. Good for her for doing what she thought was best for her babies, but this is your baby. You make the decisions that work for your family. I tried BFing my daughter and it just didn't work. Pumping was incredibly hard for me so we made the decision to FF. It's been great. My 8 month old daughter has hit all the milestones before or on time. She's healthy and happy and thriving. I would think breast milk is always the best option, IF it's an option. And if it's not, formula is great. Your health and sanity is just as important as baby.

    As far as help from dad, that's a personal preference. My DH didn't take time off. But I also have plenty of family in town. Honestly, would have been nice to have a week to adjust with him but we made it work. If you don't have family or friends that might be helping, I'd suggest taking as much time as he can. It will be super nice for you because you have to worry about your recovery during that time too.
    Pregnancy Ticker

    Wife - 11.1.14 | Momma - 5.5.16
    MissCassy
  • @aehogan90 thanks! Your daughter wasn't sick more often than the average baby? I've noticed my nephew who was FF from week 3 and on is always sick I feel like. Way more sick than a baby should be. He's in Urgent care for a cough every other week. So I assumed it was the formula feeding that caused him immune system to not build up well.

    We don't have family that can help nearby unfortunately. We are young and our parents are young and all still work so we are on our own. During your recovery what was difficult to do? Get up, shower, etc? Or just move around at your normal pace? Just trying to get a feel for how couch-ridden I will be lol. If it's just itchy I can survive no problem but if I can't use my core to get off the couch I will obviously need him lol.

    BabyFruit Ticker
  • @budzynb I'll comment on time for DH to be home after being home. It's unlikely you'll be bed ridden at all once leaving the hospital. I had a csection and was up walking the next day and walked out of the hospital. However, there were other women who left in wheelchairs. Since I had a csection, I was restricted on things I could do: limit stairs to up once and down once a day for the first two weeks, limited lifting, no driving while on pain meds, etc. My DH took two weeks off due to these things but worked from home as he could. Most of my friends that had vaginal births didn't have their DHs take off more than a day once home. 

    ***TW in Siggy***
    Me: 33 / DH: 32
    Married: Nov 2011
    TTC #1: Jan 2013, BFP Sept 2013, DD: June 2014
    TTC #2: Aug 2016, BFP Nov 2016, EDD: August 2017
    BabyFetus Ticker




    budzynb
  • @budzynb my daughter is 8.5 months old and has had 1 cold. I wouldn't attribute the immune system of your nephew to him being FF. I think that may have more to do with environment or just him. I haven't had any issues with her being formula fed.

    As far as recovery, I just wasn't prepared for being unable to do much. I bled for 6 weeks. I had no core strength so I couldn't even get up on my own for 4-5 days. I would say after about 10 days I felt much more like myself. Maybe it's not that bad for other FTMs, I just was very unprepared for any of that. And everyone has a different experience so you may pop up and be ready to go the next day. Labor and delivery just take a lot out on your body.
    Pregnancy Ticker

    Wife - 11.1.14 | Momma - 5.5.16
    budzynb
  • The most important piece of advice I have is not to care what others think, or at least just take all the advice you get with a grain of salt, and do what works best for you & your family. Whether it's breastfed vs bottle fed, cloth diaper vs disposables, what month to start baby foods, etc. Listen to your doctor & make decisions based on facts & your specific needs/desires. 

    Holy postpartum bleeding, Batman! I bled for almost 2 months straight after my 1st (a c-section at that). I've actually bled for a shorter period of time with each subsequent baby. Be prepared, and as PP suggested they make "adult diapers" that are basically padded disposable underwear. Get them. Do not be ashamed.

    I can only speak for c-sections (this will be my fourth), but the recovery is intense. Stay at the hospital for as long as insurance will cover it. Let them manage your pain so you can focus on bonding with your sweet baby. Good luck, mamas! 
    budzynbthemrsxxjaynaaxx
  • If you have a bad tear...  ask for extra epi-foam before you leave the hospital.  Always ALWAYS the blue can of Dermoplast NOT the red can.  Red burns like fire.  However, I prefer the Mother Love Sitz Bath spray (seriously... I use it for everything from postpartum recovery to diaper rash to soothing bottoms that have pooped too many times in one day)

    Breastfeeding is hard, but having a strong support system and educating yourself on what is normal newborn behavior vs what is an actual supply issue will be VERY helpful. An IBCLC is never a waste of money.

    Be prepared to wake up soaking wet and freezing in the middle of the night.   It's mostly just your body flushing out hormones and fluids, but if it goes on longer than 2 or 3 weeks, have your thyroid checked.

    Trust your instincts.  Despite being a FTM, YOU know your baby better than anyone else.  That being said... us old "pros" do know our stuff too and are only trying to help if we offer advice. you don't have to take it.  

    Boys will pee in your face any time their diaper is off.   Be warned.




    Pregnancy Ticker


    Wife. Mom. Doula. Photographer.
    BFP #1- 12/26/2011-  DS Born 9/7/12
    BFP#2- 10/16/2014- DD Born 7/2/15
    SURPRISE! BFP#3- 11/29/16-  EDD 8/6/17
    Formerly MrsAB1316

    PinkPrincessPiperBabyFeldlyndshurt
  • How did all you STMs handle visitors after baby came home? DH's family is overseas and they've already asked us twice how early they can come after LO arrives.. They want to stay with us for at least 2 weeks (6 people total) and it is majorly stressing me out. They are great to be around, but I'm worried it will be awkward trying to BF, get into a routine, etc.. not to mention disrupt our family bonding time. Ahh! How did you guys handle? Anyone have out of town visitors that stayed for an extended period of time?

    Pregnancy Ticker
  • budzynb said:

    I was raised in a home where my mom could produce milk like a darn cow. She BF all of us until we were 2. Obviously she was anti-formula and had every right to be with how much she could produce. I am super sensitive and know that BF is not in my cards, but I am praying I can exclusively pump still for a year. I feel like she will be disappointed in me if I have to resort to formula. Is formula found to be just as good as BM now a days?

    Some recent studies are showing that the benefits of breastmilk are greatly overstated.

    Keep in mind that moms who are more likely to breastfeed are upper class or UMC moms who either have the option to take longer maternity leaves, stay home, or work jobs that support flexibility for pumping.  Those same moms are likely to be healthier and be proactive about their babies' health as well.

    Formula gives babies everything they need.  If YOU need to formula feed, for any reason, even if you just want to, you are still feeding your baby and you shouldn't feel one iota of guilt.
    Babysizer Cravings Pregnancy Tracker
    PinkPrincessPiperlaryk123
  • @Incandescent @mrsmatt1212 ;
    I only live 3 miles from University of Minnesota. They are the best of the best and I was in excellent care. However I was PISSED because the ambulance service that showed up was about 4-5 dudes in their 40s that kept down playing the bleeding and gawking at my new baby. (Ambulance service is an independent company)
    It took them FOREVER TO figure out how to get my infant in her seat and finally my husband got home before they figured it out. I started screaming "just get me to the hospital"
    Then the ER doctor was fresh out of college/resident and obviously had never seen it before so they called up to third floor (obgyn) and THANKFULLY my Dr was working. She came down to ER and she was livid. She started barking orders telling them to get me to the OR immediately and she would meet me there.
    I remember very little from after the surgery. I remember waking up in recovery and asking them if they were able to save my uterus. When the anesthesiologist told me, "you are extremely lucky, they saved it but you had a close call" I burst out bawling. I cried and cried and cried.

    It honestly was just very bad timing. We do ALL of our doctoring there and we've been so extremely happy but I just had some bad luck with some inexperienced people that day.

    They told me they can do an ultrasound right after birth to look for problems if needed this time. 
  • budzynb said:

    FTM here! love all your help and calming words, ladies

    Regarding PP recovery time, how long should I assume I will need DH around? He has 4 weeks of vacation and can work from home for a week. I asked him to use 2 weeks vacation and then work from home the 3rd week and he said I was crazy for thinking I needed him that much. He thinks since I can care for babies like a pro that he won't be needed but we have no clue what kind of physical condition I will be in. I mean, am I bed-ridden for 3 weeks PP after a natural birth (hoping for vaginal, anyway

    i had a vaginal natural birth and hemorrhaged when my placenta came out( took about 45 min). my DH had taken a week off. since i hemorrhaged my midwife just wanted him to keep an eye on me for a few days to make sure i didn't pass out from blood loss. (i'm anemic, take your iron pills ladies!!!!) basically he helped me take a shower and stayed by the door whenever i used the restroom for theee days then i could do it alone. 
  • @budzynb I thought the first two weeks post partum were probably the most crucial for me, having DH there to help was everything in helping recovery. I think he did most of the diaper changing that first week. the main thing I struggled with was the stitches, also dealing with the bleeding and I breastfeeding was a challenge. luckily we has amazing paternity leave benefits, a full 6 weeks :)
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    budzynbMamaForester
  • ColoradoHikerColoradoHiker member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments Third Anniversary Photogenic
    edited January 17
    @budzynb I EP'd for almost a year, by choice bc I did not want to BF.  After about 7m or so, my supply started dropping/ DS' appetite grew to the point where I couldn't meet the demand anymore.  I mixed BM with formula at various ratios until it really wasn't worth the effort of pumping anymore.  It's doable, but especially in the beginning when you are pumping every 2 hrs, it's hard.  I'm planning on doing it again with this LO as well.  

    I very highly recommend checking out www.exclusivepumping.com.  It has tons and tons of information on what kind of schedule you should have, how to clean your pump parts, how to pick a flange that fits your nipples properly (most pumps only come with the standard size, but you can get bigger or smaller sizes as well).  I'm more than happy to answer any questions you (or anyone else) might have about EPing.

    ETA- Formula would not be approved for infants if it wasn't good enough for them to consume from the very first day.  I felt zero guilt at giving DS formula in the hospital until my milk came in.  Don't ever let anyone tell you your choices in regards to BFing, pumping or formula are wrong.  Having baby fed is the most important thing. 
    DS1: Born 11.18.15
    DS2: EDD- 09.08.17

    Babysizer Cravings Pregnancy Tracker
  • With my first I ended up needing a C-Section due to failure to progress. Almost hemorrhaged and bled out. Told new doctor in a second state about that with my second, he ignored me. Nearly bled and hemorrhaged again with my second. I am going to MAKE my doctor listen to me this time.

    Stand your ground ladies. If you think something is wrong and your medical staff is ignoring you - complain until you get some real help. It is better for it to be nothing and you overreacting, than for it to be something and cause serious health problems later. 
    BabyFetus Ticker
  • @secicc12 I agree with @aehogan90 that you set the rules.  If they don't follow them, they can't come back :).  We live away from both families.  My family is about a 10 hr drive away and the ILs are 4.5 hrs.  We knew I was getting induced a couple days prior to it happening so we told them that they could come stay at our house while I was in the hospital, and ONLY then.  Once we came home, if they wanted to remain in the area, they needed to stay at a hotel and call to see if it was ok to visit.  I wanted us to bond as a family of three and figure it out without help.  That was our personal preference.

    My ILs arrived the morning after my induction started and I didn't have DD until 9:05 pm that night.  We didn't allow them to come to the hospital that night because I was monitored extra long (csection hemorrhage) and didn't even get to hold DD until a decent amount of time later nor was I moved to my postpartum room until really early in the morning).  I didn't want anyone to get to hold her until after DH and I had that chance.  They weren't happy with that but too bad (turned out they were driving around circling the hospital all day waiting for DD to be born...insert eye roll)!  My parents didn't make the trip until the day after I delivered.  DD is their 8th grandchild so they understand that labor could take a while and to not arrive too early to wait around.  Both sides adhered to the rules.

    ***TW in Siggy***
    Me: 33 / DH: 32
    Married: Nov 2011
    TTC #1: Jan 2013, BFP Sept 2013, DD: June 2014
    TTC #2: Aug 2016, BFP Nov 2016, EDD: August 2017
    BabyFetus Ticker




  • @secicc12   Goodness, that sounds awful.  If there's absolutely no way they can stay in a hotel, which is what I would recommend, tell them to give you a few weeks minimum.  Set your boundaries and keep them.  And make sure that the family understands that you will unquestionably not be catering to them and their needs if they do come that early.  Whether or not you need to put that a little more gently depends on the family.  

    Advice to FTM:

    Whatever exact birth plan you think you're going to have, toss it.  All I wanted was an epidural, but when it came down to a rapidly dropping heartrate, and pushing or a possible c section, I pushed without any meds and made it just fine.  Be flexible, and you'll be a lot happier when it's all said and done.

    Episiotomies suck, but they aren't the end of the world.

    If you want to ebf, you may find its not in the cards for you.  You may never want to BF, and then find that you love it.  I EPd for almost a year, and it wasn't always easy, but it was worth it.

    Make sure your DH/SO is helping you as much as possible.  They helped make this tiny human, and even if you're BFing, you can pump a bottle so they can do a MOTN feeding.

    Make freezer meals.  Lots of them.

    If someone offers to watch your baby for a couple hours, for the love of god, take them up on it.  You will both be fine, and it's really important to your mental health to get some space from the LO, and to reconnect with your SO.

    A huge one for me-  you may not bond with your LO right away.  For days, weeks or months.  It's okay.  You may have PPD or PPA, not do well on low amounts of sleep, or just do better with older babies.  It's okay.

    Do whatever you have to do to survive the newborn stage.  

    That got longer than I thought it would.  Another thing- so many topics that you will see explode here in the coming months aren't nearly as important as you think they are.  Cloth or disposable diapers, breastfeeding, formula feeding, exclusively pumping; circumcision vs not, if your parents tell everyone before you do about the pregnancy/ delivery, co-sleep vs crib, etc etc.  

    DS1: Born 11.18.15
    DS2: EDD- 09.08.17

    Babysizer Cravings Pregnancy Tracker
    BabyFeld
  • Ladies! You are all amazing... every single bit of advice is bang on... and holy heck how did i forget so much?! Slightly panicking but I know I have plenty of time till LO arrives and also how worth it that precious miracle is

    Also, just remembered something - The night sweats are real. I remember waking up for motn feedings totally drenched and so confused till I mentioned it to my mum and she said it was totally normal - your body's way of getting rid of extra hormones or something.

    Another thing - when they talk about your milk 'coming in' no-one tells you that your boobs GROW GINORMOUS. Like, hard as rock bowling balls, cartoon sized boobs. And it's really hard to feed baby when they're so full. The best advice i got was to hand express a little milk into a cup before the feed to make it easier for the baby to latch on as your nipples have softened - really worked! And don't worry, the girls wont stay like that forever, they do reduce back to normal size after a while (le sigh..)
    breanna428ColoradoHikerlyndshurt
  • It can take a while to heal after tearing. I couldn't take a poop without feeling like my perineum wad ripping open for like six months. 

    Breastfeeding is the hardest thing I ever did in my life. We only lasted 9 weeks. My son wouldn't latch correctly, I got mastitis, clogged ducts, milk blebs, vasospasms..and I never made enough so supplemented with formula. The stress of pumping and not even making enough made me quit. I felt guilty for sometime. But what's best is a happy mother and baby, and that baby is fed. 

    I was an emotional wreck for two weeks after birth. Crying all the time.

    Also no one mentioned to me about night sweats. I would wake up soaking wet from sweating. It's hormonal. 
    BabyFeldTRA0816
  • @BabyFeld
    For realz, the Titty Fairy is my favorite part of pregnancy and PP. My girls looked the best they ever had after my oldest was born. High and beautiful. Sure they leaked like no ones business (I squirted both DH and baby in the face accidentally more than once...)
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    PinkPrincessPiperBabyFeld
  • Love all of this advice, ladies!! Thank you!
    ***TW***

    Me: 27, Endometriosis
    DH: 30
    Married: 06/2012
    TTC #1 since 09/2014
    10/2015 1st IUI BFN (Gonal-F & Ovidrel)
    07/2016 2nd IUI BFN (Femara, Gonal-F, Ovidrel & Progesterone)
    08/2016 3rd IUI  BFN (Femara, Gonal-F, Ovidrel & Progesterone)
    Planned IVF in Summer 2017
    Surprise BFP 11/28/16: Beta 1 - 2311, Beta 2 - 6049; EDD 8/4/17
  • Thank you @aehogan90 @bumpybump @ColoradoHiker Thank you guys! I definitely need to start setting the boundaries now.. I'm so happy they're excited and want to come visit the baby, but I agree with you all that it needs to be on our terms. Hopefully I can stay strong!

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    ColoradoHikerbumpybump
  • FTM here. I am curious about all your thoughts/experiences on epidurals?

    I've heard two different views from lots of people and I don't know what to think. Plenty of people flat out tell me "It hurts! Take the epidural, you'll need it!" But then I get just as many that say "Don't do it" because your loss of feeling makes it a lot harder to push properly? Leading to longer birth time?

    I'm not afraid of pain in labor, which I think is weird because a lot of other FTM I've talked to have all been terrified of it. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think I'd rather make sure I can feel everything going on so I can make those pushes count. But I am in experienced. Please, share your wisdom!
    BabyFetus Ticker
  • FTM here. I am curious about all your thoughts/experiences on epidurals?

    I've heard two different views from lots of people and I don't know what to think. Plenty of people flat out tell me "It hurts! Take the epidural, you'll need it!" But then I get just as many that say "Don't do it" because your loss of feeling makes it a lot harder to push properly? Leading to longer birth time?

    I'm not afraid of pain in labor, which I think is weird because a lot of other FTM I've talked to have all been terrified of it. Maybe I'm crazy, but I think I'd rather make sure I can feel everything going on so I can make those pushes count. But I am in experienced. Please, share your wisdom!
    In my experience...my epidural delivery was way harder and recovery was way harder than my med-free birth.  That being said...it's different for every woman.   Really give yourself time to think about and research which birth options most closely align with your personal beliefs.  And know that there are medically indicated situations that may require you to make a choice one way or another. If you have high blood pressure or are pre-eclamptic, your doctor may strongly advise that you receive the epidural because it lowers blood pressure.   Alternatively, if your blood pressure is super low, they may advise against the epidural.   

    If an unmedicated birth is your wish, take a comprehensive birth class (not the one offered through the hospital)  They are not cheap, but they are worth every penny.  Also, look into hiring a doula.   They don't guarantee a med-free birth, but they can reduce your risk of cesarean by up to 50% and you have a better chance of succeeding in your own personal birth goals. 
    Pregnancy Ticker


    Wife. Mom. Doula. Photographer.
    BFP #1- 12/26/2011-  DS Born 9/7/12
    BFP#2- 10/16/2014- DD Born 7/2/15
    SURPRISE! BFP#3- 11/29/16-  EDD 8/6/17
    Formerly MrsAB1316

    lyndshurt
  • @Feliciosity ;  Also...try to redirect your views on the sensations of childbirth.  Try not to think of it as "pain".  It is painful, but it's not suffering.   If it feels like suffering, then you may choose to opt for an epidural. 
    Pregnancy Ticker


    Wife. Mom. Doula. Photographer.
    BFP #1- 12/26/2011-  DS Born 9/7/12
    BFP#2- 10/16/2014- DD Born 7/2/15
    SURPRISE! BFP#3- 11/29/16-  EDD 8/6/17
    Formerly MrsAB1316

    lyndshurtkaityh1
  • Lauradi1010Lauradi1010 member
    500 Comments 250 Love Its Third Anniversary Photogenic
    edited January 17
    It's easy for PPD to be missed.  If you are still struggling after a month or two, go back to your ob or even your regular doc.  It took six months for my PPD to be diagnosed with my regular doc instead of my OB's NP.  It was like a breath of fresh air when I got it treated.  I was super reluctant to try medication.  I was on a low does of antidepressants for 6 months and they really helped.  Sadly, my counselor was a joke due to insurance provider limitations.  Had it not been for a friend who told me about another friend who had her PPD missed, I never would have double checked.
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