@dmontgo I know you're dealing with very serious, aggravating, jerk behavior from your dad.
But I've had a super emotional day, and just reading the words "copious fart noises" made me giggle like a middle schooler.
That being said...Seriously....does your dad realize he had a 50/50 shot at being correct this whole time? I'm so not looking forward to just the friends who claim to "always be right" about sex of babies. I'm happy you were able to shut down the convo and not feed into it.
Ughhhh @dmontgo my heart hurts for you and your brother and the things you experienced as children. H had a similarly abusive upbringing. FIL was an alcoholic and MIL had left for another man. They were in and out of legalistic churches that were abusive in their own ways. H recalls all of the "spankings" and belt lashings and watching his sisters kneel on rice until their knees were raw. All under the guise of religious discipline. FIL now tries to go above and beyond to make it up to his kids and grandkids which is frustrating for different reasons. And, although I truly adore my MIL, she still can't wrap her mind around why we don't hit our kid. After all, isn't it the only way to truly correct? anyway, H is the most well-adjusted out of the siblings (there are 6 total) but it hasn't been easy. So many uncomfortable conversations and boundaries. He has had to genuinely forgive his parents for the childhood they gave him and express that to them... Even when they didn't always recognize they needed his forgiveness (if that makes sense?) I'm so proud you were able to step away from the conversation. I totally understand the deleting it.. Triggers like that consume me with anxiety. Texts, voicemails, whatever. They cause me to totally shut down and avoid, but deleting and just stepping back to process is probably the best-case scenario. I *hope* he gets it together before he ruins it for himself and everyone... Extended family bonds are so important, but thankfully as parents now, we have some control over the extent of those bonds. That got wordy. But seriously, I know you said you're not religious, but you're in my thoughts and prayers today... Like for realsies. It's a lot of stress and anxiety to carry during this crucial human-growing time in your life.
@Christinaruth74 We've already gotten suggestions on how to discipline Ashton, and spanking is the top one mentioned. I know it's not the same experience for everyone, but that just taught me to be afraid and angry. There was never an understanding on my part why exactly I was being spanked, only that I was "bad" and not perfect. I would really like to incorporate gentle parenting into my parenting style and explain to Ashton consequences and cause and effect. I'm not naive to think that will always work, but I'd rather talk to him first and give him consequences before automatically going to use my hand. I'm sure there will be times he will need a swat, but that's the extent I'm willing to go--ONE light swat. I also don't want to discipline when I'm angry--I'll wait until I've calmed down first.
For a long time I hated my dad, but now I'm at the point where to me he's just a dude. I can think about him and explain my story without feeling overwhelmed with emotion, but I still struggle with triggers. The difference now is that I can step back and be honest with myself, whereas before I would rage and not take responsibility for my own feelings. It has taken a long time, but time well spent. It's also very healing for me to help others with similar experiences--I volunteer to be a source of support for others in my spare time. I am deeply sorry for your H's experiences, but so very happy for him that he rose above it!
PS--Thank you for keeping me in your thoughts and prayers. I may not be religious anymore (some of the reasons including the legalism you mentioned in your post), but I still appreciate it!
@caffeinenut It is most definitely none of her business. But from my experience with other women in DH's family is that until he takes a stand and lets them know it is only between you two, then the women will continue to pick away at him (it's a skill we are all good at, right?). My MIL and SIL used to be great at this!
I grew up Catholic, was baptized, went through communion, and was confirmed. I wouldn't call myself an atheist right now. I like bits and pieces of all religions, which is why I can't choose just one. I think there are good in all of them. But I wouldn't have gotten to the place I am right now of accepting all religions without the religious foundation I received in private grade and high school and a supportive family. I think a knowledge and foundation of religion are good for kids, even if they don't end up believing in them ultimately, because it sounds like that is what happened to you and me, and a lot of other people in the world. Yes, a child can get that knowledge elsewhere, outside of the church, but the responsibility to teach them all of those things then lies on you, which sounds like a lot of work to me, since we'll be busy being moms and just trying to make sure they don't swallow batteries and poke their eyes out. So I guess what I am saying is, it absolutely is a choice for only you two to make, but a little religious foundation isn't a bad thing, and the child will ultimately make up their own mind in the end.
@Amecsey I probably should have included a little backstory. My fiancé was raised Catholic and went through it all, baptism, communion, confirmation....he even goes to church occasionally. I however, was baptized Episcopalian, but never had any really church upbringing. I had to go to Catholic school from K-4, because the public schools where we were living were so bad and dangerous my parents thought Catholic was better, as an Episcopalian and a Jew. I went to church a few times with my grandmother, but got kicked out of Sunday school for "explaining why Jesus could not be a virgin birth" at age 7 or 8. I have always questioned the existence of God, even as small child in Catholic school. I questioned it all in Religion class.
I have no problem if people want to believe in God and go to church, as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat and try to convert me. I have no problem with my FI going to church. I won't have any problem if he wants to take our daughter to church with him sometimes. I think it is good to expose her to religion. All religion. And to the lack thereof, meaning my atheism. What I am against is making that choice for her of what to believe and what to disbelieve. I want her to make that choice herself, when she is old enough to understand the concepts of God and religion and values, and choose for herself which path she will take. To me, baptizing a baby is making that first step, that first choice.
I spent most of high school and college looking for the answer on whether God existed and if I believed in him. I came to the conclusion that religion is all a bunch of b.s. That it was created for people to feel better about themselves and to not feel alone. To give them something to blame other than themselves and fellow man for all the horrible thing s that happen in the world. And if that is how other people want to live their life, I am fine with it. I just choose to live my life differently. And I want my beliefs to have equal time and weight with my daughter as my FI would like his to have. But by baptizing her as a baby, I would be going against my beliefs. I also realize that by not doing it would be going against my FI beliefs. I just hope we can find a happy compromise that works fro both of us without causing one to give up their beliefs.
@caffeinenut We have that same view of infant baptism. My grandmother harped on it so much, even knowing that FI and I don't believe in it. I think as his parents, we have to instill in him a sense of right and wrong, and those values aren't exclusive to Christianity. We just want to teach him as much as we can about what's out there and then let him make his own decisions. Infant baptism just seems like we're making that choice for him before he has any understanding of what that choice is, which just feels wrong.
@asheleaf2018 Exactly. The only difference is that my FI want to baptize the baby. I'm hoping we can come to some compromise on it, some ceremony that takes all religions and my atheism into account.
@caffeinenut 100% get where you are coming from. One of huge issues with religion is the indoctrination of children before they are old enough to understand what is going on.
In the grand scheme of things, a baby baptism (which I don't agree with either) I think is less harmful than say, every Sunday going to church, since baby won't remember it. Maybe it would be helpful to make a list of hard boundaries that you 1,000% are against, and what things may not be as a big of a deal in the long run. I feel for you because I'm not a supporter of any of it, but if your DH isn't very religious, this may the only thing he wants to do...the other stuff may not be an issue later. Hard situation either way.
I may be on the unpopular side here, but we will probably baptize our baby even though FI and I are both atheist.
My mom is a "just in case" Christian. She doesn't actually believe but says she does just in case it is real. Not sure that works, mom, but whatever. She had me baptized because she felt like she was being a bad mom if she didn't.
FI mom is Christian and hates that none of her sons are religious. She did not baptize them. But it's very important to her that our kids be baptized. So fine, if it makes her happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, why not.
I'm glad we'll at least have someone to expose our children to religion. It bothers me when parents shove their religion down their kids throats and don't give them choices. I fear we would do the same in the opposite direction, basically by not exposing them to religion and therefore forcing them into not being religious.
@tinattt23 We don't want Ashton to feel forced to believe or not believe in something either. What we are going to do is just focus on thinking based on evidence and reading comprehension. So he will get to check out our old Bibles, read books on religion, etc. I'm not going to keep that from him, but I'm not going to teach it as gospel. He will also have access to a ton of science books. I want him to think about all of the facts, not just one side of it. I think that will give him the tools he needs to not only take things at face value, but understand where other people's views are coming from. But, we're not going to pretend we aren't atheist, either. All about balance.
@caffeinenut I am not sure I agree with you that baptizing a baby is making that first choice for them. They have no idea what is going on, nor have they made any internal commitment to God at that point. I see it as an event for the family more than the infant.
As far as it being against your beliefs, I totally understand. But that is going to be hard if he is trying to push for it. And if he doesn't care one way or the other, that is why I mentioned him standing up to the other women in his life, and standing with you.
As parents we have a big job. We raise and guide our children according to what we genuinely feel is best for them. We want them to grow up to be the best they can be and all of that jazz. (I'm not including the POS parents who make really horrible decisions for their kids.. I'm talking about a good majority of decent, well-intentioned humans)
I was raised a pastor's kid in a very legalistic denomination. There was a lot of condemnation and loads of focus on "avoiding the appearance of sin" but never really addressing struggles or dealing with issues. When both my brother and my sister had sex before they were married and wound up knocked up (not together! Separate situations years apart! We weren't that weird, I swear) they had to announce it in front of the whole congregation. There was so much shame associated with something that was so happy. So, when years later I had a pregnancy scare, I contemplated abortion over disappointing my parents again. So, I get the early indoctrination thing. I get where things can be far more harmful than good. My brother and I talk openly about this stuff now and just acknowledge that our parents were doing the best with what they knew and what they believed. I still see traces of that in their lives and attitudes now, but they've definately softened with time. Anyway, H and I are believers. We attend a fantastic non-denominational church in the heart of a really broken city. There are so many young families with young kids and it's comforting to know we are all raising our kids together in this really dynamic community. We say prayers with DD every night and before meals.. She attends church with us and we read bible stories to her. Our intentions aren't to indoctrinate her so that she can't think for herself, our intentions are to raise her in the best way we can having learned from the faults of our parents and their parents before them. We focus on grace and love because, at the heart of it all, those were the key components to Jesus' life and mission. We talk about her future and we know she will choose to either remain in the faith or pursue something different, and we will love her unconditionally no matter what. When I was in my early to mid twenties I went through a "crisis of faith" I suppose. I was at a real crossroad where I needed to choose whether my faith was founded on what my parents told me, or founded on genuine conviction. It was hard. I wrestled with it a ton and sought advice and counseling through it.. But ultimately I knew. During that time of questioning I had actually started meeting at coffee shops with other young adults who had been burned by the "church" or religion in general and just needed to talk about it. It was a really cool time for me.. Really healing.
Anyway, I say all that to say I don't think religion vs. no religion will ruin your kid. Raise them according to your convictions (whatever that looks like), encourage them as they question and search.. They will come into their own regardless.
@tinattt23 We're in a similar situation. I was raised Catholic (at this point the whole family is lapsed and only goes on maybe Christmas) and my DH was raised Baptist. I don't consider myself anything at this point, and he feels similarly. We were married by his uncle who is a Baptist preacher - but only because he's family.
I'm in the process now of figuring out how to get this baby baptized in the Catholic church. We're halfway across the country from where I grew up and I have zero connection to any churches here. We are getting him baptized solely so that if he needs to go to Catholic school he's in the "system" haha. I also plan on starting to go to church sporadically and donating. Schools in our area are awful and we're not 100% sure we'll be able to move to a better district by kinder. I need to have the option of Catholic school at a parish rate, in case we need it. If that means spending an hour a week at church, so be it. It probably makes me a bad person but oh well - don't care.
@caffeinenut I get where you are coming from. What is your FI's take on baptism? Catholics don't view it as being reborn - it's to welcome an infant into the church and remove original sin. It's also a sacrament. If your FI is a practicing Catholic - in his mind there may not be a compromise.
On the religion topic. I was raised Christian. But we don't do baptism as a baby, instead we have a dedication of the child. Basically it is stating that we will raise the child in God's word and the entire church will help lead the child through their religious path. I was dedicated as a baby. I don't have godparents or anything like that. There was really no kids my age as a teen so I stopped going and I was also working in the restaurant industry and would.always work on Sunday's. However not that I am a SAHM I have gotten back into the church I love it as an adult. Also there is lots of kids DS and DD age, that was very important to me. But since I wasn't attached to a church when DS was born I had him dedicated when DD was. I will also dedicate this baby as well. I have also met a lot of women who are in the same stage of life as I am. Since I am not originally from here I didn't know anyone. And it is very hard to make friends as an adult especially with children.
Anyway regardless of what you believe your kids will believe what ever they want as they grow up anyway my uncle is a former pastor with 5 kids and only 2 of them attend church regularly.
@karmba I love it! If that's the way to get into the good school for a good price, that hour a week is totally worth it. FI and I have talked about this before, but it's kind of a bummer that the majority of private schools are religious school. Luckily we live in an area with great schools, but if we didn't, you don't really have a lot of options if you want a good school without the religious aspect.
Welp. I've officially blocked my mother's number. I won't give specific details unless you really want me too, I feel like I've taken up enough of this board complaining about her. Long story short, I stood up to her and told her flat out no about throwing me a baby shower in FL and she refused to acknowledge my no. It turned into harassing. She's blocked. I'm done. I can't be bullied every other day to the point where my pulse is racing and adrenaline is pumping. It's not good for mine or Eaton's health. I'm done. Stick a fork in me.
DH and I are also atheists, DH was raised Catholic and I was raised atheist. I was originally concerned about DH wanting to christen the baby in Catholic church but he is so against Catholicism based on his experience that he is on board with not christening the baby at all. The reason that I was against it was because I would have to swear to raise the child in Catholic beliefs which is simply not something I can promise. Luckily my in-laws are pretty laid back about the whole thing, despite being die hard Catholics.
@caffeinenut I would suggest looking into a Unitarian church for a baptism. You can be a member and still be an atheist or agnostic. They also have GLBT ministers and such, very accepting church. I've considered joining just for the community aspect but DH wouldn't go. It might quell everyone's fears about babies going to hell, and you wouldn't have to make any promises you can't keep.
We do intend to let Baby Bells make her own decision about a higher being. I'm not sure yet how we will do that. Before I went to school my mom said that some people in school will believe in god, which is an old man living in the clouds telling people what to do. And if I wanted to believe in it, I could and they would take me to church. Talk about outcome oriented proposition! I am hoping to find a much fairer way of explaining it. We will have to do that earlier though because of MIL. Maybe I will let MIL take her to church. It's in Portuguese so i'm not sure that she would get a lot out of it haha.
I take offense to the proposition that you need religion to instill moral values in children. I was raised atheist but have great morals based on kindness and charity as opposed to guilt and fear. (I'm not saying that all religions or churches do that but some do). There are so many ways to teach children right and wrong.
Me: 38, DH: 36 Married Jan 2008 DD Baby Bells born Dec 2016 5 lbs, 12 oz, 18" so in love Due with #2 Baby Arya EDD February 2020
@leksiL - would a UU church do a baptism? We go to one (as in like 2x a year but always with plans to become more active when the kids get a little older) and I can't imagine that they would do baptisms... it seems beyond the UU scope? I would hope so anyways...
Anyways - I'm not sure how defensible this is or whatever, but while DH and I don't believe in the Christian doctrine, we're cool with it being incorporated into family events - we are not bothered by it... DH's uncle is an Episcopalian priest and he married us in his robes and everything. We scratched the Jesus language and anything that had ANYTHING to do with father giving daughter away to husband etc etc but there were many faith based and higher power focused references that worked with our spiritual perspective too. We won't baptize but if it were incredibly important to a grandparent, I think we'd consider humoring them. With the understanding that, unless sought out by the child, there would be no subsequent presentation of the Christian doctrine as fact.
@slartybartfast I honestly have no idea - I am so ignorant about UU sorry!! Do you like it?
Despite having gone a few times and doing pre-marriage counseling with the UU, I also don't know the answer! We do like it a lot. The minister at the one by us is awesome. She's so down to earth
@slartybartfast I honestly have no idea - I am so ignorant about UU sorry!! Do you like it?
Despite having gone a few times and doing pre-marriage counseling with the UU, I also don't know the answer! We do like it a lot. The minister at the one by us is awesome. She's so down to earth
Looked it up:
Rather than holding Christian-style baptisms or christenings, most
Unitarian Universalist congregations have child dedication ceremonies
for infants and children.
Child dedication ceremonies are usually crafted by the parents, the
congregation's minister, and religious educator working closely
together. Many will include the following elements:
A blessing for the new life of the child
An expression of the parent or parents’ hopes for the child
A promise by the congregation to support and nurture the child
If you are interested in having your child dedicated by a Unitarian
Universalist minister or educator, either in your home or in the
congregation, speak with the professional religious leaders at a congregation near you.
@dmontgo It blew my mind that I gathered my nerve and stood my ground and it didn't matter. I was done after that. I called my OB and they essentially told me not only that I was not allowed to go FL at all regardless of what I wanted but also confirmed my suspicions that this constant stress was not good for baby. I said, okay, that's it then. Blocked her. The nurse I spoke with was so fired up she told me my mother could call her and she would talk to her.
We won't baptize but if it were incredibly important to a grandparent, I think we'd consider humoring them. With the understanding that, unless sought out by the child, there would be no subsequent presentation of the Christian doctrine as fact.
I have been agnostic/atheist most of my life, as is my BF. I have a VERY catholic Grandmother. When my cousins were born my Aunt and Uncle did a naming/dedication ceremony with the Unitarian Church. My Grandma went to her catholic church and got holy water to baptize them. I was 19 at the time and remember finding it so insulting that she couldn't respect their wishes, but as I have gotten older I realized that no matter what I believe, this woman 100% believes that if her grandbabies are not baptized that they will not be able to go to heaven and that would just eat her up inside. She is now 96 and confused a lot but still just as concerned about babies being baptized! She keeps asking me if we have baptized the baby while she is rubbing my belly (like I said, she is confused a lot!). I won't take my child to the church and have a baptism but if letting her sprinkle a little blessed water on my baby's head gives an old lady peace of mind, I can let her do that.
@caseyewhitaker Eaton was giving you strength! That is so awesome. It takes guts to stand up for yourself, so Bravo! I remember after I stood up to my brother and mom, I was in the car like "Holy shit, did I just put the smack down on them?! Awwwww yeeeaaah son!" Something about having a little baby on the way gives you strength you didn't know you had. So happy for you.
@dmontgo honestly, I kept thinking "Who are you?" to myself as I just started responding "No." "You should have asked me first." "I'm sorry that it's so difficult to cancel, but no." And then it felt so good, I just kept saying no. When I realized she wasn't listening it was just like "Ok then," and I was done. The other day you were talking about that brave perfect thing? I don't know, I said my mind, I said no, made no difference. The difference was me though. You're right about Eaton, he's making me into a better, stronger person already. I might have put up this for my own sake long enough but it's absolutely not going to work with my child.
@caseyewhitaker You are so right! The difference has to be us and the boundaries we set for how we will allow ourselves to treated. No matter what we say, they'll act selfish and ignore our boundaries--so it's up to us to say "I deserve better than to be treated like this!" When we do that...the power is all ours!
FI's family has definitely crossed the line this time. We're going to be moving about 5.5 hours away from them after the baby gets here so I'm not letting it get to me too much. FI is really upset about how they talked to me this last time; he said he completely understands if I don't go back over there again. I'm a little exhausted by the whole encounter so I'll share more details later after I've processed it, but thankfully they won't be a source of stress anymore this pregnancy.
I'm so sorry that so many of you ladies have had to, or are currently, deal(ing) with such crappy family. Can I just say though that I am so proud to read so many of you have cut ties with such stressful people and situations. It may sound corny, but to have the balls to cut off family, that is a major cause of stress, is something to be proud of! Way to stand up for you, your spouse, and your child (ren).
@Amecsey I disagree with you. In my view, by
baptizing a baby, YOU are making that first choice for them. You are
choosing that church and that religion. Whether you or your child
follows through may be a different story, but there will always be a
record of that choice you made.
@karmba I'm not sure how to describe my FI. Is
he a practicing Catholic? He believes in God, but in the 5 years we
have been together he has gone to church maybe 10 times, not
including weddings and funerals. He believes in the morals, such as
don't kill people, but not all the doctrine. We used birth control
up until we decided to get pregnant. He has two gay cousins who he
treats and loves the same as his heterosexual cousins. In my
conversations with him about baptism, I think it is more about asking
God to watch over and protect our baby than it is about giving her to
the Catholic church and promising to raise her Catholic.
@leksiL You and I seem to have the same views on baptism and religion. I, too, get offended when people tell me that the church is the place to give your child morals. I got my morals from my mother good literature, and common sense. I went to Catholic school from K-4, and religion class was the only subject I ever got C's and D's in. I just didn't believe or care. I didn't need a church or a minister/priest to tell me right from wrong. I don't object to other people using church for their morals, but please don't tell me that is the only place morals come from. My FI's mother is super religious. So not baptizing the baby Catholic will be an issue for her, but if I can come up with another solution that my FI is happy with, it will be ok, because in the end, all that matters is that we are happy with our decision. I will definitely take your suggestion and look at Unitarian churches. I am not opposed to my FI wanting some type of ceremony to ask God to watch over and protect our baby. What I object to is the giving of our child to a specific religion and promising to raise her in that religion. That should be her decision when she is older. I will probably also look into an officiant who isn't affiliated with any church or religion and seeing what they can offer. My FI and I are going that route next year with our wedding. Why not a baptism too?
Gah I'm just done. Done! I've posted about my cousins before, but now this is just...ugh!
It started last week when my 20-year old cousin (I'll call her Amy) broke up with her boyfriend. Amy takes her 7 month old (not the boyfriend's kid) to her mother's house (we'll call this cousin June) and stays the night there. When Amy gets home the next day, the boyfriend is gone, he's trashed the house some, destroyed the professional pictures they just got done and stolen the dish soap (she chronicles this on Facebook). She later finds out he has changed the password on her laptop that she's going to need for school (thankfully she was able to reset it) and put the thermostat at 44 degrees. She swears up and down she's done with him, needs to do what is best for her and her child. Fast forward to last night. I find out she took him back. Yup, after everything she took him back.
Now, onto cousin June. Backstory, June dated and broke up multiple times with this guy who repeatedly cheated on her. The last time it happened she called him out on Facebook and swore up and down she was done. Well, Mother's Day weekend he brought her a notarized letter telling her how much he loved her and he'd never cheat on her again. Well, she broke down and accepted his marriage proposal. They got married a few weeks later (and the wedding coincided with the marriage of June's ex husband, who she was trying to get back but he didn't want anything to do with her, considering she divorced HIM). All of us advised her not to do it, but she's a grown woman and can do whatever she wants. Well, yesterday after finding out Amy was back with her ex, June comments she's so happy Amy is back with said ex, and how they seem to have flip flopped because June is getting a DIVORCE! Yup, you heard me, she's divorcing the guy she married less than 3 months ago.
This family is just a mess. I did what I could for Amy growing up but she is turning out exactly like her mom, which scares the crap out of me. She swears she's nothing like her mom, but being a young mom and taking back the same loser boyfriend time after time, yeah you're just like your mom. June also has 2 younger daughters (the cousins I've taken in over the summer that DH and I have agreed we are no longer taking) that I'm afraid will go down the same path. The older one is 11 and already seems to be going that way. Both of them do what they can to get out of the house. The older succeeds but the younger is stuck because she has no friends in the area they just moved to. DH and I used to take them to try and be positive influences on them, like I did with Amy, but their behavior and attitudes have made us not want to take them in anymore. I did break down and take the younger one for a few days last month but it was a disaster.
I want to do what I can to be a positive influence on my young cousins, but I just don't want to deal with June and her drama. I tell myself not my circus, not my monkeys, but I just don't want to see my young cousins end up like their mom and older sister! A week with us does nothing because they revert back as soon as June picks them up. I just don't know what to do. Cutting them off is not an option, as DH doesn't believe in turning your back on family. But I just cannot deal with this drama anymore.
Married 4/12/13 TTC since 6/13 Diagnosed w/ PCOS 4/9/15 - R/E recommended lifestyle change BFP 4/10/16 - DS born 12/16/2016 SURPRISE! BFP 3/8/18
@phoenix870509 Sounds like you just need to wash your hands of them. Not cut them off, but try not to take responsibility for their children and how they turn out. They are obviously very dysfunctional, and I understand how awful it is to see children grow up to make terrible decisions, but taking it upon your self to be a positive influence is doing nothing but causing you stress. It's noble but kids are going to act like the people they are always around--their parents.Take solace in the fact you will be able to be a positive influence on your child. As for FB, I would hide their feeds so you don't have to look at it.
So my mom kindly bought be 4 new maternity tops... So nice and totally thoughtful. Except they were size large... I'm a medium at most... Often small on top. It was almost humorous how large they were on me. Then she returned them and bought me 4 medium tops and two are tees which is fine but the other two are hideous!!! Like soooo ugly I can't believe she found some so bad. They are like floral carpet bags that basically scream "I'm a frumpy pregnant lady!!!"
Does anyone else's mom do things like this??? I can't tell if she just had NO clue what my taste is or picks things from her own taste or if it's passively done on purpose. It's literally everything she buys for me... So bad.
Re: Why My Family is Driving Me Crazy 8.9
But I've had a super emotional day, and just reading the words "copious fart noises" made me giggle like a middle schooler.
That being said...Seriously....does your dad realize he had a 50/50 shot at being correct this whole time? I'm so not looking forward to just the friends who claim to "always be right" about sex of babies. I'm happy you were able to shut down the convo and not feed into it.
I'm sorry to hear you had a stressful day yesterday! Here's to hoping today is much better.
H had a similarly abusive upbringing. FIL was an alcoholic and MIL had left for another man. They were in and out of legalistic churches that were abusive in their own ways. H recalls all of the "spankings" and belt lashings and watching his sisters kneel on rice until their knees were raw. All under the guise of religious discipline.
FIL now tries to go above and beyond to make it up to his kids and grandkids which is frustrating for different reasons. And, although I truly adore my MIL, she still can't wrap her mind around why we don't hit our kid. After all, isn't it the only way to truly correct?
anyway, H is the most well-adjusted out of the siblings (there are 6 total) but it hasn't been easy. So many uncomfortable conversations and boundaries. He has had to genuinely forgive his parents for the childhood they gave him and express that to them... Even when they didn't always recognize they needed his forgiveness (if that makes sense?)
I'm so proud you were able to step away from the conversation. I totally understand the deleting it.. Triggers like that consume me with anxiety. Texts, voicemails, whatever. They cause me to totally shut down and avoid, but deleting and just stepping back to process is probably the best-case scenario. I *hope* he gets it together before he ruins it for himself and everyone... Extended family bonds are so important, but thankfully as parents now, we have some control over the extent of those bonds.
That got wordy. But seriously, I know you said you're not religious, but you're in my thoughts and prayers today... Like for realsies. It's a lot of stress and anxiety to carry during this crucial human-growing time in your life.
For a long time I hated my dad, but now I'm at the point where to me he's just a dude. I can think about him and explain my story without feeling overwhelmed with emotion, but I still struggle with triggers. The difference now is that I can step back and be honest with myself, whereas before I would rage and not take responsibility for my own feelings. It has taken a long time, but time well spent. It's also very healing for me to help others with similar experiences--I volunteer to be a source of support for others in my spare time. I am deeply sorry for your H's experiences, but so very happy for him that he rose above it!
PS--Thank you for keeping me in your thoughts and prayers. I may not be religious anymore (some of the reasons including the legalism you mentioned in your post), but I still appreciate it!
It is most definitely none of her business. But from my experience with other women in DH's family is that until he takes a stand and lets them know it is only between you two, then the women will continue to pick away at him (it's a skill we are all good at, right?). My MIL and SIL used to be great at this!
I grew up Catholic, was baptized, went through communion, and was confirmed. I wouldn't call myself an atheist right now. I like bits and pieces of all religions, which is why I can't choose just one. I think there are good in all of them. But I wouldn't have gotten to the place I am right now of accepting all religions without the religious foundation I received in private grade and high school and a supportive family. I think a knowledge and foundation of religion are good for kids, even if they don't end up believing in them ultimately, because it sounds like that is what happened to you and me, and a lot of other people in the world. Yes, a child can get that knowledge elsewhere, outside of the church, but the responsibility to teach them all of those things then lies on you, which sounds like a lot of work to me, since we'll be busy being moms and just trying to make sure they don't swallow batteries and poke their eyes out. So I guess what I am saying is, it absolutely is a choice for only you two to make, but a little religious foundation isn't a bad thing, and the child will ultimately make up their own mind in the end.
@Amecsey I probably should have included a little backstory. My fiancé was raised Catholic and went through it all, baptism, communion, confirmation....he even goes to church occasionally. I however, was baptized Episcopalian, but never had any really church upbringing. I had to go to Catholic school from K-4, because the public schools where we were living were so bad and dangerous my parents thought Catholic was better, as an Episcopalian and a Jew. I went to church a few times with my grandmother, but got kicked out of Sunday school for "explaining why Jesus could not be a virgin birth" at age 7 or 8. I have always questioned the existence of God, even as small child in Catholic school. I questioned it all in Religion class.
I have no problem if people want to believe in God and go to church, as long as they don't try to shove it down my throat and try to convert me. I have no problem with my FI going to church. I won't have any problem if he wants to take our daughter to church with him sometimes. I think it is good to expose her to religion. All religion. And to the lack thereof, meaning my atheism. What I am against is making that choice for her of what to believe and what to disbelieve. I want her to make that choice herself, when she is old enough to understand the concepts of God and religion and values, and choose for herself which path she will take. To me, baptizing a baby is making that first step, that first choice.
I spent most of high school and college looking for the answer on whether God existed and if I believed in him. I came to the conclusion that religion is all a bunch of b.s. That it was created for people to feel better about themselves and to not feel alone. To give them something to blame other than themselves and fellow man for all the horrible thing s that happen in the world. And if that is how other people want to live their life, I am fine with it. I just choose to live my life differently. And I want my beliefs to have equal time and weight with my daughter as my FI would like his to have. But by baptizing her as a baby, I would be going against my beliefs. I also realize that by not doing it would be going against my FI beliefs. I just hope we can find a happy compromise that works fro both of us without causing one to give up their beliefs.
In the grand scheme of things, a baby baptism (which I don't agree with either) I think is less harmful than say, every Sunday going to church, since baby won't remember it. Maybe it would be helpful to make a list of hard boundaries that you 1,000% are against, and what things may not be as a big of a deal in the long run. I feel for you because I'm not a supporter of any of it, but if your DH isn't very religious, this may the only thing he wants to do...the other stuff may not be an issue later. Hard situation either way.
My mom is a "just in case" Christian. She doesn't actually believe but says she does just in case it is real. Not sure that works, mom, but whatever. She had me baptized because she felt like she was being a bad mom if she didn't.
FI mom is Christian and hates that none of her sons are religious. She did not baptize them. But it's very important to her that our kids be baptized. So fine, if it makes her happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, why not.
I'm glad we'll at least have someone to expose our children to religion. It bothers me when parents shove their religion down their kids throats and don't give them choices. I fear we would do the same in the opposite direction, basically by not exposing them to religion and therefore forcing them into not being religious.
I am not sure I agree with you that baptizing a baby is making that first choice for them. They have no idea what is going on, nor have they made any internal commitment to God at that point. I see it as an event for the family more than the infant.
As far as it being against your beliefs, I totally understand. But that is going to be hard if he is trying to push for it. And if he doesn't care one way or the other, that is why I mentioned him standing up to the other women in his life, and standing with you.
As parents we have a big job. We raise and guide our children according to what we genuinely feel is best for them. We want them to grow up to be the best they can be and all of that jazz. (I'm not including the POS parents who make really horrible decisions for their kids.. I'm talking about a good majority of decent, well-intentioned humans)
I was raised a pastor's kid in a very legalistic denomination. There was a lot of condemnation and loads of focus on "avoiding the appearance of sin" but never really addressing struggles or dealing with issues. When both my brother and my sister had sex before they were married and wound up knocked up (not together! Separate situations years apart! We weren't that weird, I swear) they had to announce it in front of the whole congregation. There was so much shame associated with something that was so happy. So, when years later I had a pregnancy scare, I contemplated abortion over disappointing my parents again.
So, I get the early indoctrination thing. I get where things can be far more harmful than good. My brother and I talk openly about this stuff now and just acknowledge that our parents were doing the best with what they knew and what they believed. I still see traces of that in their lives and attitudes now, but they've definately softened with time.
Anyway, H and I are believers. We attend a fantastic non-denominational church in the heart of a really broken city. There are so many young families with young kids and it's comforting to know we are all raising our kids together in this really dynamic community. We say prayers with DD every night and before meals.. She attends church with us and we read bible stories to her. Our intentions aren't to indoctrinate her so that she can't think for herself, our intentions are to raise her in the best way we can having learned from the faults of our parents and their parents before them. We focus on grace and love because, at the heart of it all, those were the key components to Jesus' life and mission.
We talk about her future and we know she will choose to either remain in the faith or pursue something different, and we will love her unconditionally no matter what.
When I was in my early to mid twenties I went through a "crisis of faith" I suppose. I was at a real crossroad where I needed to choose whether my faith was founded on what my parents told me, or founded on genuine conviction. It was hard. I wrestled with it a ton and sought advice and counseling through it.. But ultimately I knew. During that time of questioning I had actually started meeting at coffee shops with other young adults who had been burned by the "church" or religion in general and just needed to talk about it. It was a really cool time for me.. Really healing.
Anyway, I say all that to say I don't think religion vs. no religion will ruin your kid. Raise them according to your convictions (whatever that looks like), encourage them as they question and search.. They will come into their own regardless.
I'm in the process now of figuring out how to get this baby baptized in the Catholic church. We're halfway across the country from where I grew up and I have zero connection to any churches here. We are getting him baptized solely so that if he needs to go to Catholic school he's in the "system" haha. I also plan on starting to go to church sporadically and donating. Schools in our area are awful and we're not 100% sure we'll be able to move to a better district by kinder. I need to have the option of Catholic school at a parish rate, in case we need it. If that means spending an hour a week at church, so be it. It probably makes me a bad person but oh well - don't care.
@caffeinenut I get where you are coming from. What is your FI's take on baptism? Catholics don't view it as being reborn - it's to welcome an infant into the church and remove original sin. It's also a sacrament. If your FI is a practicing Catholic - in his mind there may not be a compromise.
Anyway regardless of what you believe your kids will believe what ever they want as they grow up anyway my uncle is a former pastor with 5 kids and only 2 of them attend church regularly.
@caffeinenut I would suggest looking into a Unitarian church for a baptism. You can be a member and still be an atheist or agnostic. They also have GLBT ministers and such, very accepting church. I've considered joining just for the community aspect but DH wouldn't go. It might quell everyone's fears about babies going to hell, and you wouldn't have to make any promises you can't keep.
We do intend to let Baby Bells make her own decision about a higher being. I'm not sure yet how we will do that. Before I went to school my mom said that some people in school will believe in god, which is an old man living in the clouds telling people what to do. And if I wanted to believe in it, I could and they would take me to church. Talk about outcome oriented proposition! I am hoping to find a much fairer way of explaining it. We will have to do that earlier though because of MIL. Maybe I will let MIL take her to church. It's in Portuguese so i'm not sure that she would get a lot out of it haha.
I take offense to the proposition that you need religion to instill moral values in children. I was raised atheist but have great morals based on kindness and charity as opposed to guilt and fear. (I'm not saying that all religions or churches do that but some do). There are so many ways to teach children right and wrong.
Married Jan 2008
DD Baby Bells born Dec 2016 5 lbs, 12 oz, 18"
Due with #2 Baby Arya EDD February 2020
Anyways - I'm not sure how defensible this is or whatever, but while DH and I don't believe in the Christian doctrine, we're cool with it being incorporated into family events - we are not bothered by it...
DH's uncle is an Episcopalian priest and he married us in his robes and everything. We scratched the Jesus language and anything that had ANYTHING to do with father giving daughter away to husband etc etc but there were many faith based and higher power focused references that worked with our spiritual perspective too. We won't baptize but if it were incredibly important to a grandparent, I think we'd consider humoring them. With the understanding that, unless sought out by the child, there would be no subsequent presentation of the Christian doctrine as fact.
Married Jan 2008
DD Baby Bells born Dec 2016 5 lbs, 12 oz, 18"
Due with #2 Baby Arya EDD February 2020
We do like it a lot. The minister at the one by us is awesome. She's so down to earth
Rather than holding Christian-style baptisms or christenings, most Unitarian Universalist congregations have child dedication ceremonies for infants and children.
Child dedication ceremonies are usually crafted by the parents, the congregation's minister, and religious educator working closely together. Many will include the following elements:
If you are interested in having your child dedicated by a Unitarian Universalist minister or educator, either in your home or in the congregation, speak with the professional religious leaders at a congregation near you.
@Amecsey I disagree with you. In my view, by baptizing a baby, YOU are making that first choice for them. You are choosing that church and that religion. Whether you or your child follows through may be a different story, but there will always be a record of that choice you made.
@karmba I'm not sure how to describe my FI. Is he a practicing Catholic? He believes in God, but in the 5 years we have been together he has gone to church maybe 10 times, not including weddings and funerals. He believes in the morals, such as don't kill people, but not all the doctrine. We used birth control up until we decided to get pregnant. He has two gay cousins who he treats and loves the same as his heterosexual cousins. In my conversations with him about baptism, I think it is more about asking God to watch over and protect our baby than it is about giving her to the Catholic church and promising to raise her Catholic.
@leksiL You and I seem to have the same views on baptism and religion. I, too, get offended when people tell me that the church is the place to give your child morals. I got my morals from my mother good literature, and common sense. I went to Catholic school from K-4, and religion class was the only subject I ever got C's and D's in. I just didn't believe or care. I didn't need a church or a minister/priest to tell me right from wrong. I don't object to other people using church for their morals, but please don't tell me that is the only place morals come from. My FI's mother is super religious. So not baptizing the baby Catholic will be an issue for her, but if I can come up with another solution that my FI is happy with, it will be ok, because in the end, all that matters is that we are happy with our decision. I will definitely take your suggestion and look at Unitarian churches. I am not opposed to my FI wanting some type of ceremony to ask God to watch over and protect our baby. What I object to is the giving of our child to a specific religion and promising to raise her in that religion. That should be her decision when she is older. I will probably also look into an officiant who isn't affiliated with any church or religion and seeing what they can offer. My FI and I are going that route next year with our wedding. Why not a baptism too?
It started last week when my 20-year old cousin (I'll call her Amy) broke up with her boyfriend. Amy takes her 7 month old (not the boyfriend's kid) to her mother's house (we'll call this cousin June) and stays the night there. When Amy gets home the next day, the boyfriend is gone, he's trashed the house some, destroyed the professional pictures they just got done and stolen the dish soap (she chronicles this on Facebook). She later finds out he has changed the password on her laptop that she's going to need for school (thankfully she was able to reset it) and put the thermostat at 44 degrees. She swears up and down she's done with him, needs to do what is best for her and her child. Fast forward to last night. I find out she took him back. Yup, after everything she took him back.
Now, onto cousin June. Backstory, June dated and broke up multiple times with this guy who repeatedly cheated on her. The last time it happened she called him out on Facebook and swore up and down she was done. Well, Mother's Day weekend he brought her a notarized letter telling her how much he loved her and he'd never cheat on her again. Well, she broke down and accepted his marriage proposal. They got married a few weeks later (and the wedding coincided with the marriage of June's ex husband, who she was trying to get back but he didn't want anything to do with her, considering she divorced HIM). All of us advised her not to do it, but she's a grown woman and can do whatever she wants. Well, yesterday after finding out Amy was back with her ex, June comments she's so happy Amy is back with said ex, and how they seem to have flip flopped because June is getting a DIVORCE! Yup, you heard me, she's divorcing the guy she married less than 3 months ago.
This family is just a mess. I did what I could for Amy growing up but she is turning out exactly like her mom, which scares the crap out of me. She swears she's nothing like her mom, but being a young mom and taking back the same loser boyfriend time after time, yeah you're just like your mom. June also has 2 younger daughters (the cousins I've taken in over the summer that DH and I have agreed we are no longer taking) that I'm afraid will go down the same path. The older one is 11 and already seems to be going that way. Both of them do what they can to get out of the house. The older succeeds but the younger is stuck because she has no friends in the area they just moved to. DH and I used to take them to try and be positive influences on them, like I did with Amy, but their behavior and attitudes have made us not want to take them in anymore. I did break down and take the younger one for a few days last month but it was a disaster.
I want to do what I can to be a positive influence on my young cousins, but I just don't want to deal with June and her drama. I tell myself not my circus, not my monkeys, but I just don't want to see my young cousins end up like their mom and older sister! A week with us does nothing because they revert back as soon as June picks them up. I just don't know what to do. Cutting them off is not an option, as DH doesn't believe in turning your back on family. But I just cannot deal with this drama anymore.
TTC since 6/13
Diagnosed w/ PCOS 4/9/15 - R/E recommended lifestyle change
BFP 4/10/16 - DS born 12/16/2016
SURPRISE! BFP 3/8/18
Does anyone else's mom do things like this???
I can't tell if she just had NO clue what my taste is or picks things from her own taste or if it's passively done on purpose. It's literally everything she buys for me... So bad.
Due December 27th with baby #7
Due December 27th with baby #7