1st Trimester

Morning Sickness and a 2 year old who still doesn't STTN!!

coco0723coco0723 member
Fourth Anniversary 10 Comments Photogenic 5 Love Its
edited September 2015 in 1st Trimester
Hi Ladies,
I need some advice in a major way. I am 7 weeks along and have been hit with morning sickness, on top of this I have a 2 year old, who like all 2 year olds, is very active and not very sympathetic. Lol! The biggest issue I am having is that I am not getting the rest I so badly need at night because my 2 year old still doesn't sleep through the night and I am at my wit's end on how to handle this. Getting her to sleep is a breeze. She falls asleep just fine, but staying asleep is a challenge. Some nights, she is up 2 or 3 times and other nights it's only once and usually around 3 or 4 am. I have tried adjusting bedtimes and nap times and everything else under the sun. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why this happens. I have kept sleep logs, food logs, nap logs, ect... I can't find a solution and I am really starting to worry that I am going to wind up with an infant and a toddler who aren't sleeping through the night. The one interesting thing i should note, is that when she sleeps over at her grandparents, she sleeps all night, no problem. Go figure. I would appreciate any helpful advice on this matter. Thanks!

Re: Morning Sickness and a 2 year old who still doesn't STTN!!

  • What does she do when she wakes up? Is she old enough to tell you what's wrong. Perhaps she needs some training. I have also heard of an idea where you make get out of bed tickets and they only get one per night. Try googling that.
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  • BigboobsmcgeeBigboobsmcgee member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its 25 Answers First Anniversary
    edited September 2015

    I also wonder what she does when she wakes up? And what do you to in the MOTN when she wakes up?

    At this point, you just have to leave her. Stay consistent night after night and eventually she will stop waking, expecting you to come. That's what I would do.

     

    TheBorg7of9kimey1
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  • coco0723 said:
    Hi Ladies,
    I need some advice in a major way. I am 7 weeks along and have been hit with morning sickness, on top of this I have a 2 year old, who like all 2 year olds, is very active and not very sympathetic. Lol! The biggest issue I am having is that I am not getting the rest I so badly need at night because my 2 year old still doesn't sleep through the night and I am at my wit's end on how to handle this. Getting her to sleep is a breeze. She falls asleep just fine, but staying asleep is a challenge. Some nights, she is up 2 or 3 times and other nights it's only once and usually around 3 or 4 am. I have tried adjusting bedtimes and nap times and everything else under the sun. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why this happens. I have kept sleep logs, food logs, nap logs, ect... I can't find a solution and I am really starting to worry that I am going to wind up with an infant and a toddler who aren't sleeping through the night. The one interesting thing i should note, is that when she sleeps over at her grandparents, she sleeps all night, no problem. Go figure. I would appreciate any helpful advice on this matter. Thanks!

    There is really nothing you can do to change waking patterns in your toddler. Some folks (even adults) don't sleep through the night. I know many teenagers and adults that have waking bouts. It could be her natural sleep patterns. You have to just roll with it. Does it suck? Absolutely.

    I'm wondering if folks are telling you that she sleeps through at their house because they either don't hear her getting up or don't tell you when she does. I have a hard time believing that a toddler has such variant sleep patterns just because mom is present.

    You might have both kids waking frequently for a good 6 months. Even my STTN toddler (almost 2 when brother arrived back in 2013) had a little regression when baby came home. Its just to be expected. Hang in there.


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  • I'm also interested to know what she does when she wakes up and what you do when she wakes up. Sometimes my 2-yr-old cries and sits up, but then she will find her pillow or blanket and lay down and settle back down to sleep. Sometimes she's crying out and not awake. I watch her on the video monitor and I don't go in there unless she is absolutely not settling back down within 5 minutes or so.

    Jamie


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  • coco0723 said:
    Hi Ladies,
    I need some advice in a major way. I am 7 weeks along and have been hit with morning sickness, on top of this I have a 2 year old, who like all 2 year olds, is very active and not very sympathetic. Lol! The biggest issue I am having is that I am not getting the rest I so badly need at night because my 2 year old still doesn't sleep through the night and I am at my wit's end on how to handle this. Getting her to sleep is a breeze. She falls asleep just fine, but staying asleep is a challenge. Some nights, she is up 2 or 3 times and other nights it's only once and usually around 3 or 4 am. I have tried adjusting bedtimes and nap times and everything else under the sun. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why this happens. I have kept sleep logs, food logs, nap logs, ect... I can't find a solution and I am really starting to worry that I am going to wind up with an infant and a toddler who aren't sleeping through the night. The one interesting thing i should note, is that when she sleeps over at her grandparents, she sleeps all night, no problem. Go figure. I would appreciate any helpful advice on this matter. Thanks!

    There is really nothing you can do to change waking patterns in your toddler. Some folks (even adults) don't sleep through the night. I know many teenagers and adults that have waking bouts. It could be her natural sleep patterns. You have to just roll with it. Does it suck? Absolutely.

    I'm wondering if folks are telling you that she sleeps through at their house because they either don't hear her getting up or don't tell you when she does. I have a hard time believing that a toddler has such variant sleep patterns just because mom is present.

    You might have both kids waking frequently for a good 6 months. Even my STTN toddler (almost 2 when brother arrived back in 2013) had a little regression when baby came home. Its just to be expected. Hang in there.


    Roll with it?? No, no, no, no.

    It's no surprise, you and I never agree on sleep related stuff.

    I don't think any parent should ever have to just put up with a kid, especially a toddler, that doesn't sleep. There is always a way to fix/change it that doesn't involve screwing your kid up for the rest of their lives ;) Not getting good sleep is bad for parents and the kids.

     

  • I think it depends on what happens when she wakes up. If she's just trying to get up and wanting to be awake or wanting to be with you, though love may be the solution. She gets up you put her right back and say "it's bedtime", does it again, put her back "bedtime", third time? Don't say a word and just keep putting her back. Eventually they will learn what times a day are for sleeping and what's for waking. It may take a while though and she may protest.
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  • @Bigboobsmcgee : generally sleep is the one area (that & food) that you can't "train" a baby/toddler to permanently alter. I am mobile but when I can get to a PC I'll post the sleep research & neurological sources.

    That's why sleep training as a general solution is not a long-sustaining model. You can try to make the toddler stay in bed (use the night light that changes color?) or their rooms when they wake-- but you cannot change sleep patterns. They are tied to chemical processes & neuro-receptors in the brain.

    Just like making someone fall asleep-- you can't make a kid stay asleep. Maybe she has to potty?
    Maybe she is thirsty?
    Maybe she just wants a hug?

    Toddlers are still human. Just because it's inconvenient for the parent does not mean that a kid should be "trained" out of a cycle that is as natural as any other biological process for them.

    Everything is a phase. Everything. Find out how to meet the need & you're golden. Sometimes the need is time & maturity. I've talked to many moms of kids 2 & up that their kids do not STTN.

    What other choice do you have? You can forcibly train them to ignore their waking patterns or get them a glass of water & a hug. I don't know which one sounds more appealing to you but...


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  • Put up with is the wrong terminology. When I say "roll with it" I mean do what you have to do to soothe the kid. I don't believe in sleep training because you have to repeat it periodically. I dislike that.

    So, I do the Wait It Out & Meet The Need methods. They are not simple solutions by any means. However, they have worked for my high-needs children.


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  • @Bigboobsmcgee : generally sleep is the one area (that & food) that you can't "train" a baby/toddler to permanently alter. I am mobile but when I can get to a PC I'll post the sleep research & neurological sources. That's why sleep training as a general solution is not a long-sustaining model. You can try to make the toddler stay in bed (use the night light that changes color?) or their rooms when they wake-- but you cannot change sleep patterns. They are tied to chemical processes & neuro-receptors in the brain. Just like making someone fall asleep-- you can't make a kid stay asleep. Maybe she has to potty? Maybe she is thirsty? Maybe she just wants a hug? Toddlers are still human. Just because it's inconvenient for the parent does not mean that a kid should be "trained" out of a cycle that is as natural as any other biological process for them. Everything is a phase. Everything. Find out how to meet the need & you're golden. Sometimes the need is time & maturity. I've talked to many moms of kids 2 & up that their kids do not STTN. What other choice do you have? You can forcibly train them to ignore their waking patterns or get them a glass of water & a hug. I don't know which one sounds more appealing to you but...


    No need to post studies, I've read tons of them :)

    I go to my son every time he wakes in the night and needs me. BUT, that isn't very often. If he were getting up 2-3 times a night, every night, I'd be taking action.

    I don't know a single kid over 2 (in real life) that still wakes up multiple times in the night. I do believe it's something you can and should "train". (I hate that word). By no means is sleep training being done because getting up is inconvenient for me as the parent. IMO it's one of those things in parenting you just have to do even though it's tough.

    Yes we all wake up in the night, of course, but I don't need my husband to wake up multiple times a night to help me fall back asleep. My kids don't need that either.

     

    MrsBroughton15
  • ^^ but your kids are not everyone's kids. You can't expect "a one size fits all" mentality to apply. That's where a lot of sleep books & parenting stuff falls on it's ass. Obviously, at this stage the OP's kid has a need multiple times a night.

    Maybe they are having night mares?
    Maybe something hurts?
    Maybe they just want reassurance?

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with a toddler that has those needs. Pregnancy can trigger anxiety and changes in routines etc. it's not uncommon for older siblings to regress & need more reassurance as their world changes.

    Both of my kids STTN most nights by a year. We still have some nights when we are up. It's not like once the kid STTN-- that's it forever. It's not a magic badge of mothering if your kid STTN. These moms I know that have 2 year olds (I know at least 5 mothers personally) that are still waking every 4 hours have tried every method of sleep training. They are seeing sleep specialists & neurologists.

    Every one gets the same answer: biology. Some individuals have shorter sleep cycles & you can't MAKE a toddler manually over ride their brain chemistry.

    So what do you do? You do your best to meet needs & get as much rest as possible. I'm not unsympathetic, but it's not like a toddler with these sleep patterns is doing it to be a pain in the butt or a brat. That's a grave misconception & detrimental to the relationships for all.

    It just drives me nuts that somehow there is magic solutions & catch all that must work for every family. Sometimes they just don't & it's unfair to categorize anyone as "bad" (mother or child) or lazy or whatever because their family needs are different.


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  • ^^ but your kids are not everyone's kids. You can't expect "a one size fits all" mentality to apply. That's where a lot of sleep books & parenting stuff falls on it's ass. Obviously, at this stage the OP's kid has a need multiple times a night. Maybe they are having night mares? Maybe something hurts? Maybe they just want reassurance? There is absolutely nothing wrong with a toddler that has those needs. Pregnancy can trigger anxiety and changes in routines etc. it's not uncommon for older siblings to regress & need more reassurance as their world changes. Both of my kids STTN most nights by a year. We still have some nights when we are up. It's not like once the kid STTN-- that's it forever. It's not a magic badge of mothering if your kid STTN. These moms I know that have 2 year olds (I know at least 5 mothers personally) that are still waking every 4 hours have tried every method of sleep training. They are seeing sleep specialists & neurologists. Every one gets the same answer: biology. Some individuals have shorter sleep cycles & you can't MAKE a toddler manually over ride their brain chemistry. So what do you do? You do your best to meet needs & get as much rest as possible. I'm not unsympathetic, but it's not like a toddler with these sleep patterns is doing it to be a pain in the butt or a brat. That's a grave misconception & detrimental to the relationships for all. It just drives me nuts that somehow there is magic solutions & catch all that must work for every family. Sometimes they just don't & it's unfair to categorize anyone as "bad" (mother or child) or lazy or whatever because their family needs are different.


    Bolded = True, obviously.

    Who is categorizing these kids as "bad" or saying they are brats? I'm lost...

    Of course you can't change sleep patterns or sleep cycles, I'm not saying that at all. But I will disagree with anyone wholeheartedly that thinks it's ok for a kid over 2 years old to still wake up multiple times a night and need their parents to help them get back to sleep.

    I realize my kids aren't everyone's kids but I hear my 3.5 year old and my 11 month old in the night but they don't need me to help them go back to sleep. That's the difference here. Go ahead and wake up 100 times a night kid but put yourself back to sleep.

    Yes I realize there are exceptions or medical conditions that might prevent a child from putting themselves back to sleep but the majority of the time it's the parents not making the right changes.

    There is a magic solution: consistency and hard work. No one said it was easy.  

     

     

     

    MrsBroughton15
  • @bigboobsmcgee : "

    Yes I realize there are exceptions or medical conditions that might prevent a child from putting themselves back to sleep but the majority of the time it's the parents not making the right changes.

    There is a magic solution: consistency and hard work. No one said it was easy. "

    ^^ this is the kind of stuff that makes those moms struggling to get their kids to sleep into basket cases. For real man. I don't usually go to the deuce over many things (aside from this and BF shaming.), but I will stick up for those moms that don't have the STTN kid at 2. No amount of "hard work and consistency" will change a child that needs help getting back to sleep. All it does is deprive them of a need: their mother or caregiver.

    We can agree to disagree, but its faulty logic to assume that a mother with a 2 year old that doesn't STTN isn't working hard or being consistent. You can do all of the "right things" according to every parent on this earth. Sometimes your kid just won't sleep without help.

    I really disagree with you. I feel the same way about the exercise people that are like, "well if you just work hard enough. You won't be fat" Like seriously, sometimes hard work isn't the only magic cure all to fix every life problem. A parent can try everything and still have a kid that wakes and needs to be comforted.

    I guess we have to agree to disagree, but honestly, I don't think you can spoil a toddler by meeting their needs at night. I still feel bad the nights that I thought my kid was just being a pain-- turns out she had an auto-immune disorder that causes head ache and stomache ache. She couldn't tell me that it hurt. It wasn't until I took her to urgent care that I realized she had a real need. I never sleep trained. I put in the "hard work and consistency" to be there for my child at every waking. I didn't know what was wrong and everyone else kept telling me to let her CIO (she's 3). Nope. I knew something was going on.

    So what I'm saying is-- sleep training is not always the answer. I will defend that to the end and I will adamantly work to combat these myths that if you sleep train (even though its not easy) that it is not a magic cure all that guaruntees STTN 


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  • BigboobsmcgeeBigboobsmcgee member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its 25 Answers First Anniversary
    edited September 2015
    I notice its's the parents with kids that don't sleep well who seem to be most passionate about this.

    No we won't agree on this but that's ok with me. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinions or actions just saying there is a solution if you put in the work but that work usually involves tears and some parents just won't do that.

    ETA: it's usually really overweight people that make those comments about exercising too. I'm just saying. Yes you can lose weight and make changes but it takes hard work.

     

  • And my thoughts on this have NOTHING to do with worrying I'm spoiling my kids by going to them in the night. I truly don't think you are hearing me because you keep saying random things that I've never said.

     

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  • OP, you know your child best. Is there anything different about sleeping at grandparents versus you? More light versus less light? Where does she sleep at home vs at grandparents? What's the routine? When she cries out at night, do you go in right away, or wait? Is it possible your parents aren't hearing her and she's just settling back to sleep? 

    I can empathize somewhat; my 18 mo old usually sleeps through the night, but there are times he will cry out, waking us up, and then he puts himself back to sleep (although the damage is done). 1 out of every 4 or 5 nights, however, there might be a bad wake-up for any number of reasons...it's just who he is and he needs comfort, not CIO.

    I think it would help everyone try to help you better if you could tell us a bit about the sleeping conditions, what's happening when she wakes up, etc. Good luck to you!



    PrimRoseMama
  • And my thoughts on this have NOTHING to do with worrying I'm spoiling my kids by going to them in the night. I truly don't think you are hearing me because you keep saying random things that I've never said.



    @Bigboobsmcgee : I hear you. I just disagree with your characterization about how "most parents whose kids don't sleep well don't put in the work because their kids cry & they can't handle that". That's actually not the case in many of the cases I've helped other mothers through.

    I'm passionate about this because I've been on the other end of the "omg I don't know what else to do" phone call.

    I've had mom friends call me in tears because extinction CIO didn't work, Ferber didn't work, the gradual creeping towards the door every night type thing didn't work. The putting them back in bed repeatedly didn't work.

    The kid only wanted mom to cuddle them or nurse them. That's the only thing that worked. The kids were not trying to be difficult-- just that sleep training didn't teach them anything but that their mother would ignore their cries. That just sent them into panic mode & made everything worse.

    I've nannied for kids were CIO in a controlled, loving way worked. Not my kid so not my rules. They tolerated the consistent attempts to allow them the opportunity to allow them to self soothe. Some kids don't. That does NOT mean the parents were not working hard to get their kids sleep. It doesn't mean that they were not consistent. It means it was not working for their individual child's emotional & physical needs.

    The part you seem bent on missing is: THAT IS OK. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing wrong with a 2 year old that still needs help soothing or requires other methods (bed sharing/nursing) to fall back asleep. It's a live & let love situation for me. I disagree strongly with the tone of your replies that you need to "fix" (by sleep training) a toddler that still has multiple night wakings.

    I've stated many times-- my kids learned how to soothe all by themselves without any sleep training. How? I used the Meet The Need (cuddles/contact) & wait it out (they'll sleep unassisted when they are neurologically & emotionally ready) method. Simply stated I consistently put in the work to be there for my kids when they needed help. It's not their fault they needed me to go back to sleep. It's simply how they are wired & all attempts at other methods failed. I kept trying for 6 months. That is the very definition of hard work & consistency. I realized that no amount of hard work can change what your child needs. It was just stringing me out & stressing me out to try to hulk smash that square peg into a round hole. So, I said fuck it: I will meet their needs until they have different ones.

    Lo & behold: my 3 year old sleeps by herself now & my 2 year old is 50/50. They put themselves to sleep & STTN. They have since they were a year old. I was trying to push them (each at 6-9 months) into a place they weren't ready to go yet.

    Not for their own good (because the bedtime battle wasn't good for any of us) but for some arbitrary reason outlined by books or parenting magazines. They didn't actually get good sleep at all while we were attempting to sleep train. It was fitful & anxious-- full of wakings. It was not at all restful, recharging sleep. When I burned the sleep training books their sleep quality & quantity sky rocketed & so did mine.

    Comparing adult needs for sleep ("I don't need my husband to fall asleep therefore my toddler shouldn't need me to soothe back to sleep") to toddler needs is apples to oranges. It's unreasonable to expect adult behaviors from kids that don't have the same emotional reasoning.

    So, I am coming from a place of "omg you should do X" but from a place of "you need to listen to your mom intuition & that deep-seated knowledge that you know your child's needs".

    Sleep training is not the devil but it is not suitable for every family. That's alright-- it has nothing to do with parents not working hard enough or putting in consistent effort. That language basically says, "gosh your 2 year old isn't STTN because you just aren't TRYING hard enough. Geez." As if the parent is too weak or lazy-- which not the case for very many parents I've seen first hand struggling with this.


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  • Also-- about the weight comparison: I've been thin all my life until I had kids. Now I'm over weight. I bust my ass to exercise & eat right. The weight is not coming off like it used to. So, the "omg you can do it if you just try hard enough" spiel makes me ragey.

    Again, this time with feeling, hard work & consistency is not always the golden ticket. There are a number of factors that go into losing weight. Sometimes you can work pretty damn hard & feel like you are trying to swim against the tide. So, I take issue with what you said about overweight people complaining about not losing weight. It's the first time in my life that I've ever had to try & it's terribly discouraging to bust your tail & see very little progress.

    I'm pretty sure my thyroid is weird or breast feeding is adding to my struggle. However, it's really messed up (for the weight loss or the STTN argument) to say that if someone just works hard enough they can do anything.

    Some work plenty hard at both & it's terribly discouraging to have that be a common refrain.


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  • Thank you all for your input. I think that for my situation it is a case of habit and probably sleep patterns. I personally don't sleep through the night, even before my child came along, so maybe she just inherited that from me, I always needed to get up to pee or get a drink (viscous cycle, I know). I suspect, as some of you pointed out, is that when she sleeps at Grandma & Grandpa's, they probably don't hear her. I have tried recreating all other conditions, as they are at G&G's, so I guess for now, I will just have to deal with the situation in a manner that works best for us. I realize that she is still little and that night wakings will happen, it's just been hard with having morning, noon and night sickness on top of it. I am not opposed to letting her fuss and even though she can pretty much tell me whats wrong, there are times when it really does seem that all she needs is a hug and maybe some reassurance that I am not far away.
    PrimRoseMamaredfallonsorarose
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  • I have a friend that bought her two year old one of those alarm clocks where the screen changes colors when it's time to get up (can't remember exactly...like it starts yellow and then turns to green at say 7am or something).  Since her two year old knows his colors, she told him that he's not allowed to get up for the day until the clock is green.  She can see him on the video monitor some mornings, just playing with his toys in his room, waiting on the clock to turn green before calling to her.  would that work?  Or is your daughter getting truly worked up and upset when she wakes in the night?  Does she need you to change a diaper or does she just want a hug?  I have to believe that if she only does this when you are around and not when she knows you're not there that it's not actually necessary for you to go in and comfort her back to sleep.  As guilty as it makes you feel, it might take a few nights of tough love to get the point across. 

     

    I don't believe you can change a person's actual sleep patterns (I myself have always been a "need to get up once during the night to pee" person) but I think a child can learn that they don't need mom's assistance to put themselves back to sleep at night by the time they are two years old.  I can't imagine managing the MOTN waking schedules of both a newborn and a toddler.  I mean yes, toddlers will occasionally wake in the night for a specific reason, but it shouldn't be a nightly occurrence.

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