Weaning to WCM? Milk alternative?

ncase2

So, a while ago I was on the parenting board and there was a huge discussion about weaning to almond and/or coconut milk instead of whole cow's milk. I have since researched more about the A1 hormones and whatnot, and am still not completely satisfied / convinced to not wean to WCM when the time comes. Anyone out there feed their kids milk alternatives, and why? Other than MSPI issues, do you have other reasons for not giving cow's milk? What milk alternative do you use?

jennlin

my kids are both MSPI, but even if they weren't...i wouldn't do cow's milk any more for myself after they are done nursing . because they were MSPI, i was forced into learning a lot about cow's milk, and why we drink it. i'll sound like a nutcase if i go into it too deeply, but some of the main reasons are:

-humans are the only species that drinks milk from another species
-humans are the only species that drinks milk as adults
-a good chunk of people in the world are lactose intolerant, because our bodies were not designed to process lactose/milk as adults
-the dairy farmer/government conspiracy leading the way in the "gotmilk" style ads.

and i think i officially crossed the crazy line. PM me if you want to know more.

edit: and i drink almond milk because it's the most accessible, but sometimes switch it up with coconut milk. when i had low supply, my daughter drank almond and coconut interchangeably.. i also avoid soy milk due to phyto-estrogens.

edit again: and i prefer rice milk ice cream, and coconut milk "heavy cream".

LC122

I asked my Pedi about this after hearing that one of DH's cousins didn't do cow's milk because she was avoiding "extra hormone exposure". He said nut milks did not have the same nutrition as cow's milk.

I've never really bought the "drinking another animal's milk" or "drinking milk as adults" ideas because there are plenty of things that humans do with/for food that other animals don't - farming, cooking, use tools, etc..

chelseyestelle

I honestly know nothing about the subject but I just read this article like 2 seconds ago so I'll share.
https://www.salon.com/2014/07/17/almond_milk_is_kind_of_a_scam/

bkeane619

We do WCM yum yum yum. I still enjoy a nice glass with a brownie or piece of cake. I use organic, soooo much better.

ncase2

@Jennlin - you're not crazy! I've been reading up on all that too.

Also, I just saw that rice milk is not recommended for kids because of arsenic exposure - do you think that would be the same for the ice cream?

I don't know that I would be able to give up cheese. I did that for 8 months because of MSPI, which he thankfully outgrew, but damn it was hard. 

sooner1981

Almond milk contains very little protein and many varieties also have very little fat. Coconut milk has lots of fat, but no protein. One of the big reasons for having milk in a child's diet is for the "guaranteed" dose of protein and fat in a meal when a young child may not eat much else on their plate. Proteins and fats are really needed for optimal brain and body growth in the toddler years.

The argument about "humans are the only species that xxx" is pretty bogus in my opinion because we are also the only species that uses electricity, vaccinates our young, cures cancer, travels to outer space and other smart things. If you are interested, there are some fascinating articles about the huge leap in human achievements due to the human discovery of domesticating cows and goats and drinking their milk as a reliable protein and fat source that did not depend on migration patterns/hunting availability.

You don't "have" to do WCM, but if you do anything else, just be committed to ensuring your child gets adequate fat and protein every day for brain development, eye development, muscle growth, etc.

huntjul

sooner1981

I wanted to add--we don't go overboard on milk/dairy. Our 2.5 year old daughter gets a small (4 or 5 ounce) cup in the morning, maybe a sprinkle of cheese in her veggies at lunch, about 6 ounces of yogurt as a snack and another small cup of milk with dinner.

jennlin

ncase2 said:

@Jennlin - you're not crazy! I've been reading up on all that too.

Also, I just saw that rice milk is not recommended for kids because of arsenic exposure - do you think that would be the same for the ice cream?

I don't know that I would be able to give up cheese. I did that for 8 months because of MSPI, which he thankfully outgrew, but damn it was hard. 

from my research a little over a year ago--it had something to do with naturally occurring arsenic, i think. and it wasn't enough to make a difference. rice absorbs more of the naturally occurring silicon (i think it was, that turns into arsenic like properties) than others, which is why rice milk gets a bad wrap.

i would bet rice milk/ice cream would be the same, when it comes to the above...

as for the fats, proteins, etc.. cow's milk is a good consistent source for it, but can be balanced out with proper diet. almond milk didn't have enough fat for my daughter, so our pedi suggested upping her olive oil intake, including mixing some in her almond milk. we also ate lots of meat for protein, and almond milk usually has more calcium and vitamin d than cow's milk.

Lee81

Aren't humans also the only species drinking almond/rice/coconut milks? How is that any different from being the only species to drink another species' milk? I get it for people who are lactose intolerant, of course, or if you are vegan, but otherwise, why make the exception for cow's milk (assuming cruelty free/organic/etc).

jennlin

Lee81 said:

Aren't humans also the only species drinking almond/rice/coconut milks? How is that any different from being the only species to drink another species' milk? I get it for people who are lactose intolerant, of course, or if you are vegan, but otherwise, why make the exception for cow's milk (assuming cruelty free/organic/etc).

for me, it's because cow's milk was made for baby cows. almond milk is made out of whole almonds, blended, and strained, but essentially, it's just almonds and water. and we already consume almond and we consume water, so it's just mixing the two.

blueeyedrose86

jennlin said:

Lee81 said:

Aren't humans also the only species drinking almond/rice/coconut milks? How is that any different from being the only species to drink another species' milk? I get it for people who are lactose intolerant, of course, or if you are vegan, but otherwise, why make the exception for cow's milk (assuming cruelty free/organic/etc).

for me, it's because cow's milk was made for baby cows. almond milk is made out of whole almonds, blended, and strained, but essentially, it's just almonds and water. and we already consume almond and we consume water, so it's just mixing the two.


Also, baby cow nutritional needs are vastly different than baby needs. I see this argument more for being in favor of continuing bfing instead of weaning and switching to wcm, but I understand your point.

taylormarie923

Is there any reason why I can't continue to give formula (or BM for those still nursing) until LO is a fully weaned toddler eating real food? Is there any reason why he can't receive protein from a different source while still getting a healthy amount of dairy fat in the form of butter (without the casein and whey)?

ncase2

@sooner1981‌ - do you have any concerns or research about growth hormones in dairy and early puberty? I thought I remember reading about that too, but I don't know all the medical research behind it. I thought it especially affected girls...?

jennlin

taylormarie923 said:

Is there any reason why I can't continue to give formula (or BM for those still nursing) until LO is a fully weaned toddler eating real food? Is there any reason why he can't receive protein from a different source while still getting a healthy amount of dairy fat in the form of butter (without the casein and whey)?

they have toddler formulas..but IMO, those are marketing gimmicks..formula is just cow's milk broken down for easier digestion, then extra nutrients added-- i don't remember..are you a MSPI momma on formula? i don't know if they have toddler nutrimigen formulas...they might.

jennlin

taylormarie923 said:

Is there any reason why I can't continue to give formula (or BM for those still nursing) until LO is a fully weaned toddler eating real food? Is there any reason why he can't receive protein from a different source while still getting a healthy amount of dairy fat in the form of butter (without the casein and whey)?

and to answer part two, it's perfectly healthy and normal to bf toddler until they wean, and never give cow's milk. i only gave my dd almond/coconut milk while i was pregnant and had low supply..and after the bottles, she still wanted to "dry-nurse". milkwise, she's full-time boob. which sometimes means 3x's a day, sometimes mean 10x's. she refuses milk of any form out of a cup..(but will drink water, homemade smoothies from cups)

cow's milk is popular because it's an easy source of calcium, protein, and fat. you can achieve those with a balanced diet.

taylormarie923

jennlin said:

taylormarie923 said:

Is there any reason why I can't continue to give formula (or BM for those still nursing) until LO is a fully weaned toddler eating real food? Is there any reason why he can't receive protein from a different source while still getting a healthy amount of dairy fat in the form of butter (without the casein and whey)?

they have toddler formulas..but IMO, those are marketing gimmicks..formula is just cow's milk broken down for easier digestion, then extra nutrients added-- i don't remember..are you a MSPI momma on formula? i don't know if they have toddler nutrimigen formulas...they might.


I'm not, I just unfortunately had my boobs quit on me. My original plan was to BF for as long as possible and skip wcm altogether.

taylormarie923

Oh and this isn't scientific or anything, but it explains why cow milk grosses me out pretty well. On top of the pus, there is also traces of blood in cow milk. YWIA.

https://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/how-many-pus-cells-are-in-your-milk

jennlin

crunchymama11 said:

I'm not vegan so we do enjoy dairy- cheese, butter, yogurt. Mostly because we like it lol. I don't avoid all dairy. But I do limit it (and dairy is so $$$$ anyway). That's my rambling opinion.

oh, and this. when i'm no longer nursing, i'm going to be #allaboutthecheese again, but i just won't be drinking milk as a beverage. before i found out about dd's milk intolerance, i was a regular milk drinker...i had one or two glasses a day, just because.

jennlin

taylormarie923 said:

taylormarie923 said:

Is there any reason why I can't continue to give formula (or BM for those still nursing) until LO is a fully weaned toddler eating real food? Is there any reason why he can't receive protein from a different source while still getting a healthy amount of dairy fat in the form of butter (without the casein and whey)?

they have toddler formulas..but IMO, those are marketing gimmicks..formula is just cow's milk broken down for easier digestion, then extra nutrients added-- i don't remember..are you a MSPI momma on formula? i don't know if they have toddler nutrimigen formulas...they might.

I'm not, I just unfortunately had my boobs quit on me. My original plan was to BF for as long as possible and skip wcm altogether.

--

well if you want you can do toddler formulas after 1y. there's extra vitamins in there, but i would personally just try and get it from food. i don't know the price breakdown, but i imagine the toddler formula will be much more expensive than WCM. milk in general, whichever you choose, is just process to slowly wean baby from breastmilk/formula into solids anyway.

taylormarie923

For those curious about the nutritional breakdown, I took a photo of the nutritional content of coconut milk, almond milk, and formula to compare. Granted neither fully encompass all that formula has to offer, but coconut milk seems to be pretty close in terms of fat content and almond milk provides half the amount of protein (which would easily be made up for in other parts of the diet with solid food - we are talking a 1g difference) and a good portion of carbohydrates (again, easily accounted for with fruits and vegetables).



And just for funsies, here is the breakdown for one serving of WCM:



Admittedly, the serving size is larger by volume, so it would be up to you to do the math to determine how much your child actually needs.

sooner1981

This is a good article:

Http://www.parentingscience.com/benefits-of-milk.htm

It is an article that explores the potential costs and benefits of milk consumption from a scholarly perspective.

taylormarie923

sooner1981 said:

This is a good article:

Http://www.parentingscience.com/benefits-of-milk.htm

It is an article that explores the potential costs and benefits of milk consumption from a scholarly perspective.

The link is broken

taylormarie923

@sooner1981 I think I found the article you were trying to link:

https://www.parentingscience.com/benefits-of-milk.html

I'm still not convinced and the pros do not outweigh the cons for me.

sooner1981

taylormarie923 said:

@sooner1981 I think I found the article you were trying to link:

https://www.parentingscience.com/benefits-of-milk.html

I'm still not convinced and the pros do not outweigh the cons for me.

Not trying to convince anyone. We do organic cows milk because we think it is a valuable piece of an overall diverse, healthy toddler diet. But like I said in my first response, you certainly don't have to use it if you have other sources of the nutrients WCM provides.

taylormarie923

sooner1981 said:

taylormarie923 said:

@sooner1981 I think I found the article you were trying to link:

https://www.parentingscience.com/benefits-of-milk.html

I'm still not convinced and the pros do not outweigh the cons for me.

Not trying to convince anyone. We do organic cows milk because we think it is a valuable piece of an overall diverse, healthy toddler diet. But like I said in my first response, you certainly don't have to use it if you have other sources of the nutrients WCM provides.

I didn't mean convinced by you, but by the article. It was an interesting read though and touches on the type 1 diabetes link that @quartermisses mentioned.

tmccord21

We're planning on almond milk. We do local organic dairy but something about giving straight milk to him seems gross to me. We limit dairy in general.

Phalaenopsis

taylormarie923 said:

Oh and this isn't scientific or anything, but it explains why cow milk grosses me out pretty well. On top of the pus, there is also traces of blood in cow milk. YWIA. https://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/how-many-pus-cells-are-in-your-milk

I heart you, but this article is completely one-sided and just ...bogus. The term "pus cells" is a misnomer. There is no such thing in the body. There are white blood cells, which fight infection. Pus is a very gross, colloquial term and is used in this article as a scare tactic. There is no way that milk contaminated with pus would ever get to the market. Absolutely ridiculous. Any time you consume either a live or formerly live organism, its parts or its products, you also consume its blood content as well. Therefore, white blood cells are present in your bloody beef product ,etc, as well. They are not harmful in the least and are a natural component of the organism you consume. 

Personally, I have no problem with WCM but I also don't think other forms of milk are necessarily wrong either. I just have a problem with the article and using it to make a decision.

huntjul

First, let me just say I'm a little sad this thread didn't blow up with cow gifs.

taylormarie923 said:

Oh and this isn't scientific or anything, but it explains why cow milk grosses me out pretty well. On top of the pus, there is also traces of blood in cow milk. YWIA. https://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/how-many-pus-cells-are-in-your-milk

And second, I don't care what kind of milk you feed your kid (if any) any more than whether you FF or BF. But I do care about misinformation being spread about my dear friends the cows.

There's not blood in cow's milk any more than in any other species (which is to say not unless there's a cut or something on the nipple). The linked article is propaganda and nothing else. It uses "pus cells" instead of the correct term "white blood cells" just to be inflammatory (haha OMG I couldn't stop myself from the pun).

WBCs are the body's defense and response cells, so they are in every tissue. Yes, there are more when conditions are unsanitary, but there is a USDA mandated cap to the concentration in milk. Cow's milk is tested on the farm, every time the truck picks up milk, and the farmer is actually paid more if there are fewer WBC in the milk--to reward him/her for keeping the cows healthy and the milking parlor as clean as possible. If the WBC count is too high, the milk is refused and never leaves the farm.

Organic milk may not be all it's cracked up to be either. It ties the farmer's and vet's hands when it comes to treating sick cows. For example, cows who get mastitis that could be easily treated with antibiotics may be sent to slaughter instead of treated. So my feeling is that it may sacrifice cow well-being for the sake of being free of drugs that (to the extent our tests are able to detect it) aren't even able to be found in the milk.

I don't care if you drink/feed milk or don't. As sooner said, just feed the kid adequately and everyone will be good. But don't vilify a good source of nutrition for things like hormones, WBCs, and a whole bunch of other mystic misinformation.

And yes, I'm biased too. I'm a vet. I love cows.

Obligatory cow gif

Phalaenopsis

good pun @huntjul

And I totally agree with you, the article really gets my goat.

taylormarie923

LOL! I never said it was accurate, but the propaganda worked on me. I'm too grossed out to drink milk.