HTW: NRA, Washington & Senseless Shootings — The Bump
October 2013 Moms

HTW: NRA, Washington & Senseless Shootings

I'm sure most of us have heard of the tragic Isla Vista shootings.  The father of one of the victims has spoken up and wants to get the NRA's and the government's attention to control the gun laws. He is a defense attorney and even wants to meet with Elliott Rodger's (the shooter) father to make it happen. I think it's pretty ridiculous that this kid with not only a history of mental illness and previous unwarranted attacks and publicly uploaded videos on YouTube detailing his feelings and "Day of Retribution" was able to acquire multiple firearms.  Peace to the victims and their families...of all the tragic shootings.  
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Re: HTW: NRA, Washington & Senseless Shootings

  • I know we've been over this before but another shooting will happen and then another and then another.  It's pretty much a pattern now.
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  • Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way.  Don't believe me?  Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China.  They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens.  What is the only thing in common?  Mental illness.  


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  • Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way.  Don't believe me?  Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China.  They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens.  What is the only thing in common?  Mental illness.  


    Agreed. 
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  • sleepy33 said:
    It's still a lot harder to commit mass murder with a knife.

    Andplusalso, nobody here mentioned 'banning all the guns we want'.
    Yes.  Yes yes yes.  

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    sleepy33Jalee85
  • sleepy33 said:
    Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way.  Don't believe me?  Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China.  They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens.  What is the only thing in common?  Mental illness.  


    It's still a lot harder to commit mass murder with a knife.

    Andplusalso, nobody here mentioned 'banning all the guns we want'.
    It is, but it's still possible.  There are two instances where 8 and 9 people were killed in knife attacks in China.  

    I'm sure someone will come to this post at some point and say all guns are horrible and should be banned forever.  I was just predicting that argument.  

    We can have strict laws and have universal background checks, but unfortunately there will always be the possibility that someone steals a gun from someone else who obtained it lawfully.  That's why I think the main emphasis needs to be on helping the mentally ill first.  

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  • beernifer said:
    This is also a good starting point to talk about this misogynistic culture that we currently live in. This entitlement to women's bodies. We need to start addressing this issue as well. This is not just an issue about mental illness, gun control, but it should also should open this conversation about this apparent misogyny. The shooter hated women. He was out to get them. This is a great article that really talks about this issue. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/your-princess-is-in-another-castle-misogyny-entitlement-and-nerds.html Sorry not clicky. #yesallwomen
    This is an interesting topic to bring into the mix.  I saw an article that pointed out movies do the same thing - depicts a basic fairy tale of not hot guy gets uber hot girl.  The author pointed out Seth Rogen's new film, Neighbors.  Needless to say, Rogen didn't tactfully take the hit but I think the author was getting at the idea behind the films, not that Rogen had a hand in "a lunatic's rampage".  

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  • We can have strict laws and have universal background checks, but unfortunately there will always be the possibility that someone steals a gun from someone else who obtained it lawfully.  That's why I think the main emphasis needs to be on helping the mentally ill first.  
    I really just want you to think for a second how much more difficult it would've been for this kid in particular to steal a gun.  FTR, he delayed his plans because he got a cold. That aside, the possibility of someone stealing a gun is still not a good reason to allow any US citizen a firearm.    
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  • I think that given his past history he shouldn't have been able to obtain fire arms himself.  Though getting them by other illegal means will happen if someone truely wants to do harm.  But I think a lot of people are forgetting he killed his 3 male roommates with a knife.  He did not shoot them.  He was hell bent on doing this, he was going to find a way to do it whether he had a firearm or not. 

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  • Sexism is still a completely relevant topic.  There's plenty of evidence for that.  It's really awesome to defend women and then being bashed for being a feminist or a lesbian.  Yeah, because that's why I hate you.
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  • Lee81Lee81 member
    I'd probably be a bigger fan of the idea of gun control if I thought it would work. In the history of this country, I can't think of a single example of prohibition that worked out as intended. Drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, abortion, pornography have all been illegal or restricted at some point and the people who wanted them still found ways to get them. I don't see why it would be any different with gun control. I'd rather see the time and money go to something that actually stands a chance.
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  • Lee81 said:
    I'd probably be a bigger fan of the idea of gun control if I thought it would work. In the history of this country, I can't think of a single example of prohibition that worked out as intended. Drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, abortion, pornography have all been illegal or restricted at some point and the people who wanted them still found ways to get them. I don't see why it would be any different with gun control. I'd rather see the time and money go to something that actually stands a chance.
    No one wants to take the guns away.  We just want to see it better controlled.  ...and when's the last time someone killed someone else with their porno habit?
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    jennlinlstein5
  • Here's the thing, we can ban guns all we want, but if someone truly wants to harm someone, they will find a way.  Don't believe me?  Look up all of the knife/machete/box cutter attacks in China.  They have very strict gun control laws, yet this type of thing still happens.  What is the only thing in common?  Mental illness.  


    The UK also has very strict gun control laws. Why don't you compare our gun deaths to yours. Here. I'll help you. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

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    Stuck in a quote box.  Does the UK have any mental health programs supported/sponsored by the government?  I'm not being snarky, I'm genuinely curious because I don't know.  I know how other healthcare works, but not mental healthcare.  

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  • I hate that I live in a country that finds a few ambiguous lines about the right to form a militia more worth defending than human lives. 
    This in particular is really boggling because if we're going by a 200+ year old document, then let's not forget what a militia is, America.
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    ncase2
  • It's clear I'm not winning this argument so I'll move on.  I completely agree with @Lee81.  Maybe she just said it better than I did.  

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  • It's clear I'm not winning this argument so I'll move on.  I completely agree with @Lee81.  Maybe she just said it better than I did.  
    I think the opposition is just wanting to hear a better argument than "well, they were gonna do it anyway..."
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    jennlin
  • Lee81Lee81 member


    Lee81 said:

    I'd probably be a bigger fan of the idea of gun control if I thought it would work. In the history of this country, I can't think of a single example of prohibition that worked out as intended. Drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, abortion, pornography have all been illegal or restricted at some point and the people who wanted them still found ways to get them. I don't see why it would be any different with gun control. I'd rather see the time and money go to something that actually stands a chance.

    No one wants to take the guns away.  We just want to see it better controlled.  ...and when's the last time someone killed someone else with their porno habit?

    I realize that this is besides the point, but there are plenty of people who want to take the guns away. Personally, I wouldn't care if they did. I just don't think there has been much historical precident in this country for the assumption that it will help the problem. I think it would be like the war on drugs. Billions spent and we're worse than when we started.
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  • It's clear I'm not winning this argument so I'll move on.  I completely agree with @Lee81.  Maybe she just said it better than I did.  
    I think the opposition is just wanting to hear a better argument than "well, they were gonna do it anyway..."
    But that is the argument.  You can limit guns by having strict, mandatory background checks, you can limit the type of guns people are allowed to buy, and you can limit the amount of ammo that people are allowed to buy.  That will not stop someone who is mentally ill or hellbent on killing people from finding a way to do it.  If someone is set on doing that, they will use anything within their reach to do it and cause maximum harm and death.  

    If there are no guns they can locate (maybe a relative doesn't have one they can take or the shooter couldn't qualify for a gun), they will find something else.  A knife, a car, whatever they can think of.  Having stricter gun laws MAY deter someone, but not everyone.  

    So what happens if we enact tougher gun laws and people are still managing to find guns (stealing from a family member who obtained it legally with the tougher laws, for instance) or they are now killing people with knives or some other weapon?  What do we do then?  Where does it end if we aren't willing to take a very serious look at the state of mental illness in the US?  

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  • Fuck all the guns. (Just in case you all forgot my opinion on them)
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    Jalee85
  • Lee81Lee81 member
    edited May 2014


    Lee81 said:

    I'd probably be a bigger fan of the idea of gun control if I thought it would work. In the history of this country, I can't think of a single example of prohibition that worked out as intended. Drugs, alcohol, prostitution, gambling, abortion, pornography have all been illegal or restricted at some point and the people who wanted them still found ways to get them. I don't see why it would be any different with gun control. I'd rather see the time and money go to something that actually stands a chance.

    Gun control does not equal gun abolition. I've shot a gun more times in England than I have in the US (For sport of course) (Not to kill someone)( I thought I should clarify that)
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    I get that it's different and I'm fine with the idea in theory. I just don't think it will work. This is 'Merica. We do not like being told we can't have something we want.
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  • I think a policy on forbidding gun ownership for anyone with a criminal record or mental health record would help the situation but the guns will still be sold illegally and it will always be possible for someone who wants a gun to get one.  I still think an effort in policy would help.  Also a policy for gun retailers to be prohibited from selling firearms permanently if they sell guns illegally, without proper research to whom its being or to those who have been prohibited from owning guns.  This is not an answer to the growing problem of psychotic mental health issues but it is a good deterrent.
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  • This is not a laughing matter. At all.

    But this satire piece by the onion really puts things in perspective.

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/
    sleepy33bkeane619lstein5
  • This is not a laughing matter. At all. But this satire piece by the onion really puts things in perspective. http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131/
    Saw this. Yeeeap, it surely does.
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  • Lee81Lee81 member
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    I see your point and I'd love to believe that we really are not so different from all the other countries where gun control has worked out, but I just don't. I think it will go over as well as all of our other efforts to regulate or control things. If any sort of gun control passes, I hope to be proven wrong.

    I wonder how many of the other countries that everyone wants to compare us to in these debates also have adequate programs in place for the mentally ill.
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  • Lee81Lee81 member
    @sleepy33‌ I think that would be the ideal and I think that's the real solution. But I don't think it will happen because of the cost. I think mental health will keep getting put on the back burner. People will keep saying let's take care of the gun control first because it's faster and cheaper. If gun control does pass it will be money wasted because the mental health piece of the puzzle is still missing.

    @dknight413‌ That's kind of what I'm getting at. Many of the countries that we are compared to when you pull out the gun violence/mass killing statistics also have such good mental health programs in place that gun control might not even be needed. We can't say all the credit is due to gun control.
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  • Lee81Lee81 member
    @dknight413‌ I didn't mean to seem like I was defending anything! The whole system here needs a complete makeover and I'd love to see things be way more British-y. All I originally meant to say is that gun control by itself is pointless.

    And I am very excited for UK love :) I heart you too and was not taking anything personally. I rarely do.

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  • Lee81Lee81 member
    hlb622 said:


    All that is going to do is perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness, shove it BACK under the rug, and take away rights from an already-oppressed population. A population, mind you, that is comprised of over 50% of Americans. It's not THEM, it's US.

    Wait, who is 50% of Americans? The mentally ill??
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    hlb622
  • hlb622hlb622 member
    Lee81 said:
    All that is going to do is perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness, shove it BACK under the rug, and take away rights from an already-oppressed population. A population, mind you, that is comprised of over 50% of Americans. It's not THEM, it's US.
    Wait, who is 50% of Americans? The mentally ill??
    The number of people in the United States who will experience a major depressive disorder at some point in their life is roughly 50%, yes. Diagnosed mental illness rates right now exceed 1 in 4. And that's only the folks that are diagnosed and receiving treatment.
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  • Lee81Lee81 member
    edited May 2014
    hlb622 said:


    Lee81 said:

    hlb622 said:


    All that is going to do is perpetuate the stigma surrounding mental illness, shove it BACK under the rug, and take away rights from an already-oppressed population. A population, mind you, that is comprised of over 50% of Americans. It's not THEM, it's US.

    Wait, who is 50% of Americans? The mentally ill??

    The number of people in the United States who will experience a major depressive disorder at some point in their life is roughly 50%, yes. Diagnosed mental illness rates right now exceed 1 in 4. And that's only the folks that are diagnosed and receiving treatment.
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    Wow! I would never have guessed it would be so high. That's sad. Are there any statistics on how this compared to the rest of the world? I'm curious if a statistic like this says something about us as Americans or if it's a more global sign of the times.

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    hlb622
  • The common denominator here is that the us is fucked up.
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