NTTGP: Gender and Parenting

WolFox

I was with a slightly older friend the other day who has a six year old. Her husband lives with them and loves their daughter, but he is much less active a parent than she is. She was talking about how he pushes her very hard, rarely listens, and often gets involved in parenting only when things get "too loud." We've talked about this a lot and although she's not always fond of it, and she doesn't like the fact that her daughter and husband aren't that close, she's relatively comfortable with their roles. "It's the mom that raises the children," she said. "When I talk to him about things he even says that to me sometimes: 'I don't know, you're raising her, do what you want." 

She then turns the conversation to me: "So, your husband has a very demanding job. Are you ready to do it all by yourself?" I was VERY taken aback. Yes, I don't have children yet, and yes my husband has a demanding job. Will I probably spend a bit more time with our children then him? Yes. Is he going to be a lazy dad? He's sure as hell not planning on it! DH and I don't really take part in a lot of the classic gender roles, and we balance our relationship a lot differently than this friend. DH has wanted children for longer than I have, and is super active with our nieces. I cannot see DH being an "arm chair Dad" and her assumption that all men parent the way her husband does really bothered me. 

TL/DR: My friends arrangement works for her and her expectations of gender roles, even though she doesn't love it. My relationship is different, and although I'm sure parenting will be nothing like how I expect it will be, DH and my whole approach to life/chores/duties is different than hers. For those of you with kids: How do you and your partner share the parenting? Are you comfortable with it? 

WolFox

There's more for me to say, but I have to do some work (boo). I will be back when I have a break. 

ImJessesGirl

Well, my partner is not my child's father, so our situation may not necessarily be tell-tale of how our own biological child's needs will be met by both of us. However, my husband does bring her to the sitter in the morning who puts her on the bus. He does sit with her and help her with homework when she asks him to, and he does a lot with her. I feel that all of us, her dad, her stepmom, her stepdad, and me all play a very important parenting role for DD. We all see it as that DD has four parents, not just two. So, I can assume that when DH and I have our own child, he will be just as involved. From our discussions, he will be just as involved with feeding, night care, etc for an infant, and then any other role he feels needs to be done.

lebradford

It totally doesn't have to be that way! (Though I know you know that.)

I have been a single parent for most of my son's 11 years, so I don't have a ton of co-parenting experience. My (now) husband and I moved in together about two years ago when my son was 9 and his was 8. My husband is a very involved parent. I definitely do more than he does, but that is because I am a teacher so I am home with the kids a lot more than he is. Now our kids are older and require different kinds of parenting, but I know that when he was with his ex and my step-son was younger, he was very involved too. He gave him his bath usually, and almost always put him to bed. 

I think you just have to be self-aware. When you have kids if you always cringe when dad picks them up or criticize him for doing things "wrong," you might end up with a less involved dad. If you give him his space to parent too, leave him alone sometimes, and establish routines from the beginning that he can get involved with, then I think you'll be fine. :-) 

Edited for clarity.

kerbear135

DH and I tend to be the opposite when it comes to classic gender roles- he does most of the house work, cooking, and cleaning (because he's OCD and it bothers him not to)...however, when it comes to DD, I tend to do more of the parenting than him...
DH is not what I would consider an "arm chair" father...it's just that he's never been around little kids and always doubts himself (not just when it comes to DD). He would prefer to defer to me because I grew up babysitting and working in the church nursery and am much more comfortable around little ones. Plus, I'd rather watch DD while he does housework (she's at the age where she's too little to help and too little to occupy herself- someone has to watch her while the other one does dinner/laundry/etc). He's a great father though- he loves her to pieces and she already has him wrapped around her little finger- I think as she gets older he's getting more comfortable taking on a bigger role.

LadyXaverian

We absolutely co-parent. Neither of us is perfect, but we each have things that we do as a part of our daily routine with DD (he does bath, I do bedtime, for example). We each spend time alone with her, and we spend time together as a family. We make decisions about the big things together, and we trust each other to make decisions about the little things in each others absence. 

catahoulatte

We both have full time jobs, and we split everything. We discussed it ahead of TTC, and he felt that his father was more like your friend's partner-not really involved unless it was disciplinary or pushing them in sports. He wanted to be MUCH more hands on, and thankfully, he is.

For example-we both give him a bath every other night. I can count on one hand the times one of us has done it alone.
-We switch off on who gets to put him to bed each night. Whoever isn't putting him to bed makes his breakfast and lunch for the next day.
-He takes him to DC and picks him up (I work much farther away) and then when I get home after them, he takes half an hour or so to go relax, unwind, whatever while G and I hang out.
-We both cook dinner/do dishes and laundry. There aren't enough hours in the day for me to be a full time housewife and a full time employee so he has to be involved.

Works for us. He and G can go out and run errands together without me as easily as G and I can without him. It makes life a lot easier if I never have to worry if he can handle things like tantrums and mealtimes if I'm working late or whatever.

liladelphia215

Right now with our schedules (I work 7-3:30 and he works 3-11:30) I do much of the parenting. With a three year old, I am still figuring out the best way to parent her. But when I find something that works, on the weekends when DH is with us he usually steps back. For instance, we have a big problem at mealtme. DD doesn't WANT to eat. And if she sits at the table all she wants to do is down her drink. This turns into fights and DH is worse about keeping his cool than I am. But lately I found if I make it a game (I count to three and that's all the drink you get until you take another bite) We get MUCH further into mealtime without issue. So this past weekend DH saw what we were doing and took a huge step back and bit his tongue at dinnertime, even when she started to get difficult. 

What I will say is that when he is home DH does a lot to parent her, but he also wants to be the fun Dad since he only gets to see her on the weekends because of our schedule. He always does bath time on weekends to get in so Daddy/Daughter time.

Now starting this summer her schedule changes and she will be with DH in the morning, summer camp in the afternoon, and me in the evening. It will be interesting to see how our parenting dynamic changes. It has been mostly me since she was 8 months old, but that wasn't really DH's choice. 

Is your friend a SAHM? I wonder if that's part of it. Now I know not ALL couples with SAHMs are like this, but I think they follow the gender roles more than two working parents - and I think men are all different too. Even if I SAH, I think my DH would be super involved - but he grew up raising his younger brother pretty much so that's part of it - but I know of Dad's not are super involved when they get home. I hope they don't come to regret that decision later on.

Edit: Grammar

AlfiesMOM

I would say I probably "do" more for E but my husband does more around the house. For example, I make all of her doctors appointments and generally go to most of them (there have been times he has taken her alone), I put away all her clothes, organize her closet, put stuff away that no longer fits. I also do all the research on schools, food choices, behavior methods we will use, now that she is potty training I am taking the lead on all of that. However, when it comes to caring for her we both  play with her, we rotate bath and put down, and we rotate dropping her off at daycare. 

My husband does all of the yard work, takes out the trash, does the laundry (mostly I still do it a lot), he is the primary dog walker, pays all of the bills, ect. So while I definitely do more for her, he picks up other things and we both give her tons of attention and for me that's the most important thing! 

SpartanChick88

I do a good portion of the parenting because I am a full time mom, even when I am working. When Dad is home he is completely hands on. This past weekend he sent me to a spa and was Dad all weekend. Yes, there are times when I feel like I wish he would do more, but that is me and not him. He never missed an OB appt or a pediatrician appt so I knew he was going to have a very active roll in parenting.

mchupie

DH has a very demanding job and works almost every single day (weekends included) but still manages to be very involved. He has breakfast with the girls and comes home for dinner and bed time (most nights he goes back in for a few hours). He usually does the baths, he helps out when they wake up in the middle of the night, and comes up with all sorts of creative ideas of things to do with them.

YellowBag

I really appreciate all the insight from you all as this is a topic we discuss a lot.  We currently have really nontraditional gender roles.  I am the sole breadwinner with a demanding career that I love (most of the time).  DH does much more of the household work and is going to school full time with the goal of starting an accounting career in late 2015.  His biggest worry with TTC is that he will end up "barefoot and pregnant" in that it will be so much easier to put his infant career on the back-burner since mine is already a sure thing and financially necessary.  I know he will be an involved parent, but I also know finding the right balance will be a challenge for us.   

wishiwaspreggo

My situation is different than most here, since we'll be two women raising children together. We're both cisgendered and neither of us are necessarily more masculine or feminine than the other.  She is the cleaner, I'm the cooker.  I imagine her parenting strengths will be patience, diplomacy, and creativity.  I will likely be the protector, worrier, and the disciplinarian.  Not that I relish those roles, but they're my natural tendency.  We'll both do the fun stuff with them, but C is like one of those Pinterest moms everyone hates except she comes up with her ideas on her own.  Her mom was a caterer and party planner growing up, and C worked with her when she was a teenager.  She's already talking about the birthday parties she's going to throw lol... It's cute We both really want to share the things we love with our kids and want to foster their interests even if they don't align with ours.  We both worry we'll have athletes and cheerleaders for children but if it comes to that, so be it.

IMHO, I think your friend can do better, @WolFox.  Even among my friends who adhere to strict gender roles, the dads are always involved in raising the kids.  And they should be.  If there are two adults in the household, they should both be raising the kids.  One doesn't just get to be the "buddy" or benevolent figurehead without any responsibility.  It sounds like her husband is copping out and shifting the blame on outdated beliefs that women should parent and men should play golf. 

wirt2cute

BBnut said:

We both raise our child.  My husband is a nuclear test engineer.  He works 12-14 hour days 6 days a week.  I work 20-25 hours 3 days a week.  I'd say our work schedule is more of a deciding factor than gender roles.  However, due to the nature of his job, I have to be able to take care of everything alone.  Unless I'm in the hospital or something extreme, I can't 100% count on him for things like daycare pickup and doctors appointments.  Therefore I'm "cruise director" and I do almost all the logistics and appointments with my son.  I also do 85% of the housework.

However, when he gets home from work he watches my son while I make dinner, feed my son (this is not an easy task), do bathtime and read books for story time with me.  It doesn't always happen and he's usually tired but they only get 1-2 hours together 6 days a week.  It's important they spend time together.  He will do timeouts if necessary.

Overall I feel like we parent together, I just shoulder more of it because I work less and my job is less stressful (plus DH wouldn't notice if my son's meds were getting low).  I'm in no way raising him alone. 

+1 on the bold area. The only time H is really able to provide back up is on his off days. It is not about gender for us either but more to do with his work schedule. But I can say on his days off we share all the family duties. 

LadyXaverian

NellyBluth said:

SarahL77 said:

We absolutely co-parent. Neither of us is perfect, but we each have things that we do as a part of our daily routine with DD (he does bath, I do bedtime, for example). We each spend time alone with her, and we spend time together as a family. We make decisions about the big things together, and we trust each other to make decisions about the little things in each others absence. 

I think this is so important. MH gets up with H on Saturday mornings and lets me sleep. They totally have their own little daddy-daughter rituals while mama is still snoring.

Same here! They usually go to Target. It's their "thing". Then Sunday, he gets to sleep in while she and I veg together on the couch in front of the TV and reading her favorite books over and over and over.

PrimRoseMama

H is super Dad. DD thinks he rules the world. Since I am at home I do a lot of the discipline etc, but when he gets home he jumps in with everything.

Parenting is beast.

WolFox

I think what a lot of you said about "work schedules over gender roles" is pretty straight on with me and DH. We both have demanding jobs, but mine is less so. I also make less money. I'll be able to change my schedule to working only three days a week but he won't. If I made more money than him he would be a stay at home Dad IN A HEART BEAT. We don't fall into a lot of strict gender roles so for us it's just about being good spouses and good parents. 

I trust that although he works a lot, when he's home he will be present and active. We of course will have to find a balance but we're pretty good communicators. I trust that we will figure it out.

I have a very close relationship with my dad. Even though my parents were divorced he was very present and active. When I went to college, girlfriends would call home and if their mom wasn't home, they'd just tell their dad for her to call them back when she got in, and hang up. No talking, no relationship at all. "Well, what would I talk to him about? He was always taking my brothers fishing and I just hung out with mom... " That always made me sad, and I knew I wouldn't want a partner, male or female, who would be okay with not having a relationship with their kid, especially just because of gender. 

JNCPro3130

Wow!  That is shocking to me!  My DH and I don't have children yet, but we have talked about how WE want to raise our children.  We discussed these things before even getting married.  My DH does travel for work, so I will have take more responsibility (obviously) when he is away, but I would be very upset if my DH said, "You're raising the children. Do what you want."  Children are just as much the mother's responsibility as they are the father's.  I feel like parenting is a HUGE responsibility.  In my opinion, both mother and SO should have an active role. 

peggels24

I am not shocked by it - I see it with my SIL and my brother (even though I have to admit that my brother is actually WAY more involved than I thought he would be as he wasn't too keen on the idea of having kids at all and now they are the light of his life).  My SIL definitely does "Mommy" roles while my brother sits back a lot.

DH and I do not have kids but we discussed it - due to his job flexibility, he will probably "work from home" or "stay home" at least 1 or 2 days a week so he will probably wind up being with the children more than I am.  I totally expect that we will make decisions together and back each other up on "on the spot" decisions that need to be made. We are going into this together and we will both play equal parenting roles.

WolFox

Joy2611 said:

This entire thread is really upsetting me, honestly. 

My husband recently got a huge promotion.  Soooooo many of my friends have said "Oh my god!  Just quit your job!"  As if my job is something that is just to keep my little wife brain busy while my husband is off earning all the money we ever need and I contribute exactly nothing.  I've shed more tears over this situation than I care to admit so your friend's comments about who is responsible for parenting because of it are just breaking my heart.  My job is for fun, my role is to take care of the house and raise the children.  Got it.  Glad it's still 1950.

All of this. It's about choices and doing what works for you and your partner's and your children's lives. When people make antiquated assumptions about how I want to run my life based on my genitals and gender it makes my eyes twitch. 

YellowBag

@Joy2611 -- I feel your pain.  It is obvious that your job is a huge part of your identity (as it should be and as is mine) and a career is certainly about a great deal more than your salary relative to your SO.  It is shitty of anyone to act like your career is an option or a whim or a luxury.   

divinemsbee

H and I live in a pretty traditional gender role situation right now. I SAH, he works. However he's very involved in our home life. I do think that I'll be more of the, as PP said, cruise director, but I already am that for us and the dogs. Me being at home works for us, but it's definitely not everyone's cuppa.

However, H is so much better with kids than I am. I've been around kids more, and I'm great with older kids, but he's just fantastic with kids of all ages. I can't imagine him being hands-off. I have to say I can imagine that I'll have to be the one to get a grip and just let him do things differently from me. He's not going to be the same parent I am, but if we're working towards common goals and not contradicting each other then I'm the one that's going to have to learn to let him find his own way. I don't want to end up in a situation where he thinks he can't do it right so he just should let me do it. Then we would both end up resentful.

In terms of time, a lot of it will be on me. H's job is one that is, right now, mostly 9-5, but that will change. If he gets to do what he wants to do, he'll start an intensive Master's degree course next summer. If he doesn't get that, we may stay as we are, or we could be looking at a deployment soon. I do know that I will have to be able to take care of a lot of stuff on my own, so the trick is going to be making sure that I let him develop his parenting style when he's there.

pippacricket

No kids yet but I will say that your friend's husband sounds a lot like my dad. He was not involved in any of my or my brothers' lives growing up and now none of us have or wish to have a relationship with him. There's obviously more to the story than just him being a hands off parent but essentially if he had tried to foster some sort of relationship with me at any point, maybe I would try a little harder to keep in touch with him or give a crap about him.

EIsieMae

As a SAHM, I am the one who does most of the physical work when it comes to child rearing. Baths, diaper changes, nap times, and discipline usually fall on my lap. DH is very interactive with them in the evenings and on the weekends though.

Although, I would never judge your friend on the way that she and her DH raise their child, I do feel that it is a bit naive of her to assume that you and your DH will be the same way. There are lots of men with high demand jobs that take an active role in parenting

SpartanChick88

Joy2611 said:

LindsRockies said:

Joy2611 said:

my role is to take care of the house and raise the children.  Got it.  Glad it's still 1950.

I am confused by this.

Yeah.  I realized the way it came out was confusing because I'm really touchy about this whole subject right now.

WolFox's friend husband has a demanding job therefor her friend's husband and her friend seem to think that this somehow absolves him from being involved in anything else.  He works; the end.  Everything else is the wife's job.  That mindset angers me beyond belief.

In the case of the OP's friend, I would agree with your statements here; however, the 'traditional role' adherence isn't necessarily 1950's.  I do raise our daughter, I do a great deal of the errands, cleaning and appointments and DH helps me wherever he can and is a very helpful and active parent when he isn't working.  BUT this was a conscious choice that we made years ago.  I had a great job in DC that I LOVED but when the opportunity came to move to NC we jumped on it.  We wanted to be in a position where I could stay home with kids and not spend 4 hours a day commuting.  We have since learned that I can't 'stay at home' or I would love my ever loving mind, which is why I have a part time job where DD can still be with me (on top of the contract that I brought from DC - also 'at home').

We have a rather bizarre dynamic in our house but it was the choice we made.  Now, that said, if MH had said 'this is your responsibility - take care of the house and the kid' I would have kicked his ass right back to DC!

EIsieMae

MrsRexManing said:

Joy2611 said:

This entire thread is really upsetting me, honestly. 

My husband recently got a huge promotion.  Soooooo many of my friends have said "Oh my god!  Just quit your job!"  As if my job is something that is just to keep my little wife brain busy while my husband is off earning all the money we ever need and I contribute exactly nothing.  I've shed more tears over this situation than I care to admit so your friend's comments about who is responsible for parenting because of it are just breaking my heart.  My job is for fun, my role is to take care of the house and raise the children.  Got it.  Glad it's still 1950.

I'm going to give you some entirely unsolicited advice. Ignore people. Seriously. 

I've worked full time and heard shit that I didn't NEED to work and poor baby in daycare always with the sniffles, blah blah blah. And I've become a SAHM and heard (sometimes from the same people as before) that I'm wasting my professional degree and did I ever think I'd go to law school to wipe runny noses. All of it. Ad nauseum. It's just the first of a million issues that come up when you have kids that everyone has an opinion on and you can't ever please everyone. You can only find what works for you and your family, and everyone else can go suck a dick. 

Amen @MrsRexManning ! No matter what you do in parenting, someone is going to judge. Everyone thinks that they know how you need to feed, discipline, and raise your children. You just have to blow them off and do what is best for you and your family.

mmb248

Attitudes like that tend to piss me off.  Generally, I believe that as long as a kid is healthy, safe, and respected, it's all good.  However, in this case, I just can't help but think that living with an adult who largely ignores you isn't good for a kid. 

My dad had a very demanding job.  He flew out on Monday mornings and if he returned before Friday, it was late at night after I was in bed.  I saw him on weekends.  I still wouldn't consider him an "arm chair" dad.  Fuck that shit.  My dad wanted to be involved in every part of my life, a part of every decision, and in no way felt that raising me was my mom's "job."  He thought that providing my daily care was her responsibility just because of the nature of their work schedules, but if there was every any typical gender role that he displayed it was that as my father, my raising was primarily HIS responsibility.  He took his role as head of the family very seriously and for him that meant being involved in my life.  Not telling my mom to take care of me.

For me and H, our schedules are a lot like my parents.  I have a regular 9-5 with tons of time off.  He travels frequently and we never know if he's going to have a 2 hour work day or a 22 hour work day.  Because of that, I fully expect to spend more time with our child, but I expect him to be every bit as involved as I am.

And honestly, I wouldn't have married a man that didn't want to be an active part of his child's life.

JNCPro3130

rentaduckie said:

This entire thread is really upsetting me, honestly. 

My husband recently got a huge promotion.  Soooooo many of my friends have said "Oh my god!  Just quit your job!"  As if my job is something tht is just to keep my little wife brain busy while my husband is off earning all the money we ever need and I contribute exactly nothing.  I've shed more tears over this situation than I care to admit so your friend's comments about who is responsible for parenting because of it are just breaking my heart.  My job is for fun, my role is to take care of the house and raise the children.  Got it.  Glad it's still 1950.

I know what you mean. My husband and I were talking about baby stuff and he apologized for not making enough money for me to stay home. I was like, WTF, I like my job. I'd still want to do it. The assumption that all women would rather be SAHMs always annoyes me.

I went out with a guy in college.  We had ONE date.  He asked me if I anted to be a SAHM.  I told him that I wanted to work because I was spending 4 years in college to earn a degree.  He told me I was being selfish for not wanting to raise children.  

I have nothing against anyone who wants to stay at home with their children. I think it is great and think it is a hard job to have; however, as you said, it isn't for everyone.  I don't feel selfish for wanting to have a career.   

SpartanChick88

FINEdoubleLINE said:

We don't have children yet. We both grew up with "armchair dads." I don't want that for our children. The roles in our relationship are more traditional but not because we try to be. My husband definitely helps with housework and he tries to help cook. He wants to be an active parent when we have kids. We are lucky that we have friends and family that are amazing parents that we can learn from. My husband is worried he won't know what to do with a child and if he will be a good dad. I think that is normal. I think he will be a fantastic dad and hands on.

I don't think anyone actually knows what to do with a child once they are sent home with the tiny helpless human... but we figure it out.  If the desire to be a hands-on/good dad is there, he will get the hang of it pretty quickly