UO

SaguaroBlossmom

nola78 said:

DiFazette said:

nola78 said:

I had drafted a reply and I don't know where it went.  I cannot figure out this new format.  Anyway.  I was going to talk about the prison health care issue.  My H worked as a prison physician for a year and saw so many mentally ill patients with self-inflicted injuries.  It was really sad.  It's also more cost effective to treat some conditions vs. let them go.  I get that some people think that those on death row or with life sentences shouldn't have healthcare, but I disagree.  

I can't speak to what incarcerated healthcare does or doesn't do... But I do know that it's shameful we treat prisoners better than our military and elderly. How the hell can an inmate (who is living off my tax dollars) get immediate care but our veterans wait month upon month for an appt with the VA docs and hospitals. It's disgusting.

Where is the data showing that inmates get immediate care for non-emergent issues and VA patients wait months and months?  I think this is an assumption that people make and it really isn't true.




https://cironline.org/reports/number-veterans-who-die-waiting-benefits-claims-skyrockets-4074

My mom also works in home health and sees a lot of this.. So yes , it is true.

DiFazette

nola78 said:

DiFazette said:

nola78 said:

I had drafted a reply and I don't know where it went.  I cannot figure out this new format.  Anyway.  I was going to talk about the prison health care issue.  My H worked as a prison physician for a year and saw so many mentally ill patients with self-inflicted injuries.  It was really sad.  It's also more cost effective to treat some conditions vs. let them go.  I get that some people think that those on death row or with life sentences shouldn't have healthcare, but I disagree.  

I can't speak to what incarcerated healthcare does or doesn't do... But I do know that it's shameful we treat prisoners better than our military and elderly. How the hell can an inmate (who is living off my tax dollars) get immediate care but our veterans wait month upon month for an appt with the VA docs and hospitals. It's disgusting.

Where is the data showing that inmates get immediate care for non-emergent issues and VA patients wait months and months?  I think this is an assumption that people make and it really isn't true.

My data comes from the Bureau of Justice Statistics that 76% of federal prison (70 % of state prisoners) see doctors annually. As I said... I'm not trying to get in a pissing match about level of care in prisons because I'm not educated on it - nor do I care to be, but when waiting times at VA are nearly 90 days for a psychiatric visit, something is wrong with the system. Prisoners have access to medical professionals in the event of an issue. They may be sent elsewhere for treatment, but the have more of a lifeline to medical help than going through the screwed VA system. ETA - I'm not talking about emergency care for non emergent issues, I'm talking about the availability of healthcare in general.

Lolalipsy

I agree that prostitution should be legalised.

I disagree that cannabis should be legal.

I don't agree with the death penalty. I think prisoners should be treat humanely.

As for the Contrast with how the elderly are treat compared to prisoners, I agree that the elderly get a raw deal but I wouldn't reduce the quality of care of our prisoners, I think this is indicative of a civilised society. We should be looking to increase our care of the elderly.

DiFazette

@nola78 - totally agree about mental health issues in the US (see my previous post in UO). That being said, I put veterans and prisoners in two different camps here. One is more deserving than the other in my opinion.

BekW2009

@Lolalipsy‌ , They are referring to veterans when they talk about VA just incase you were confused. Not sure what VA is in the UK.

emmy236

A friend of mine joined the army to help pay for medical school (and he wanted to be a trauma surgeon) and he said that all doctors should have to do a year of their residency in a VA or base hospital. The experience he said was better than most other hospitals because the cases that came in were usually very interesting. I think if we did that it would greatly help with availability of doctors to our vets and servicemen and at a fairly low costs considering residents aren't paid much. I'm not an expect by any means in medical care but I understand cost/output ratios and to me that sounds like it would make sense.

Angela183

schmass said:

rea1687 said:

SaguaroBlossmom said:

Or what about the prisoner in my state that "has the right" to a tax payer funded sex change surgery? Mind you that he is in prison for murdering his wife...

Are you from MA?


I was going to say the same thing.

telicious2

Angela183 said:

schmass said:

rea1687 said:

SaguaroBlossmom said:

Or what about the prisoner in my state that "has the right" to a tax payer funded sex change surgery? Mind you that he is in prison for murdering his wife...

Are you from MA?

I was going to say the same thing.

Yup!

LaxMOM44

Haha when you guys were saying VA this and VA that I was thinking "man, these bishes really think Virginia sucks"....my bad.

Oohgurl

Since we are talking about cost saving in prisons...what do you think about this... Several states do this...

If an Joe Blow was born in the U.S. and does a Home Invasion he gets sentenced to 5 years (ex). If Joe Blow is an illegal alien, he gets sentenced to 5 years but only has to serve half of it and get deported instead. Basically, if they are illegally here they only have to serve half their sentences. (Does not apply to murder or rape). 

I think it blows. Save money somewhere else. 

Thoughts?

telicious2

Oohgurl said:

Since we are talking about cost saving in prisons...what do you think about this... Several states do this...

If an Joe Blow was born in the U.S. and does a Home Invasion he gets sentenced to 5 years (ex). If Joe Blow is an illegal alien, he gets sentenced to 5 years but only has to serve half of it and get deported instead. Basically, if they are illegally here they only have to serve half their sentences. (Does not apply to murder or rape). 

I think it blows. Save money somewhere else. 

Thoughts?

A LOT of money could be saved or better used elsewhere if it was not given to ILLEGAL immigrants.

watuzzigal

Humans aren't "illegal" no matter how you feel about immigration. We don't walk around saying that someone is an illegal thief or an illegal murderer.

Lolalipsy

@BekW2009‌ thanks, I picked it up as elderly even though it's the same in the UK (go figure). I still feel the same applies though.

Lolalipsy

@watuzzigal‌

Lolalipsy

Damn gif fail.

Oohgurl

watuzzigal said:

Humans aren't "illegal" no matter how you feel about immigration. We don't walk around saying that someone is an illegal thief or an illegal murderer.

Invaders? What term do you use? Breaking the law is breaking the law. 9/11 hijakers weren't visting they were illegally in the country. Swimming across rivers to get here is illegal. Flying in with false passports from Eastern Europe is illegal. Not calling them illegal is like calling a someone breaking into your house an uninvited guest.

watuzzigal

Oohgurl said:

watuzzigal said:

Humans aren't "illegal" no matter how you feel about immigration. We don't walk around saying that someone is an illegal thief or an illegal murderer.

Invaders? What term do you use? Breaking the law is breaking the law. 9/11 hijakers weren't visting they were illegally in the country. Swimming across rivers to get here is illegal. Flying in with false passports from Eastern Europe is illegal. Not calling them illegal is like calling a someone breaking into your house an uninvited guest.

I think how you are talking about it above is the difference. You are calling their actions illegal, rather than the person. So for your example, a burglar is committing a crime, but you aren't designating the burglar as an illegal burglar.

Now I'm thinking about the hamburglar. That's some old school McDonalds.

Oohgurl

watuzzigal said:

Humans aren't "illegal" no matter how you feel about immigration. We don't walk around saying that someone is an illegal thief or an illegal murderer.

Invaders? What term do you use? Breaking the law is breaking the law. 9/11 hijakers weren't visting they were illegally in the country. Swimming across rivers to get here is illegal. Flying in with false passports from Eastern Europe is illegal. Not calling them illegal is like calling a someone breaking into your house an uninvited guest.

I think how you are talking about it above is the difference. You are calling their actions illegal, rather than the person. So for your example, a burglar is committing a crime, but you aren't designating the burglar as an illegal burglar. Now I'm thinking about the hamburglar. That's some old school McDonalds.

Did you play in the hamburglar playground toy before they took them away when you were a kid? The one that looked like a cage? I got stuck in it. Ha, but it was fun! 

ETA: PIC

watuzzigal

^^ ohmygosh I remember those!

emmy236

I just wish people stopped to think why people risk so much to come to this country (and other developed nations). We focus so much on keeping them out but we never think why they don't want to stay in their countries. As a mom now I think if I lived in a place with poor health care, poor schools, constant risk of violence and an overall bleak future for my child, I would do everything I could to try and make a better life somewhere else. We don't want to perform a lot of jobs here and we want to pay the people who will do them as little as possible. We have created a demand for these workers. Other countries have a ready supply of people who will do these jobs at a low wage, it's not a surprise (please draw your own supply and demand graphs now).

CNJ4EVA

Good point @emmy236‌. I think it's true that a lot people don't think of that viewpoint. I admit I'm one of them. Your statements are definitely valid.

Oohgurl

Meh, a lot of it is bullshit. Not all of them are hispanic migrant workers (which there are visa's available for, they just dont apply for them). Many come from Russia or China or Albania or pick a country because they 'fear' their country. Yet, they transit through France, U.K., Canada, etc to get here. Why not stay in all those countries, if they 'fear'. They are opportunist... I have seen so so so many tax returns where they claim their 12 dependents that don't even live in this country. They are sucking this country dry. They don't have health care, so they walk in get their treatment, have their kids for free while Susy Smith born here has to go bankrupt because she got behind on medical bills. 

They protest that they should be treated the same but (to my OP) will happily take the get out of prison at half term because they are undocumented. 

pnutg

Oohgurl said:

Meh, a lot of it is bullshit. Not all of them are hispanic migrant workers (which there are visa's available for, they just dont apply for them). Many come from Russia or China or Albania or pick a country because they 'fear' their country. Yet, they transit through France, U.K., Canada, etc to get here. Why not stay in all those countries, if they 'fear'. They are opportunist... I have seen so so so many tax returns where they claim their 12 dependents that don't even live in this country. They are sucking this country dry. They don't have health care, so they walk in get their treatment, have their kids for free while Susy Smith born here has to go bankrupt because she got behind on medical bills. 

They protest that they should be treated the same but (to my OP) will happily take the get out of prison at half term because they are undocumented. 

Agreed.

MAdams728

^^ Yep.

lizziebooper

Oohgurl said:

Meh, a lot of it is bullshit. Not all of them are hispanic migrant workers (which there are visa's available for, they just dont apply for them). Many come from Russia or China or Albania or pick a country because they 'fear' their country. Yet, they transit through France, U.K., Canada, etc to get here. Why not stay in all those countries, if they 'fear'. They are opportunist... I have seen so so so many tax returns where they claim their 12 dependents that don't even live in this country. They are sucking this country dry. They don't have health care, so they walk in get their treatment, have their kids for free while Susy Smith born here has to go bankrupt because she got behind on medical bills. 

They protest that they should be treated the same but (to my OP) will happily take the get out of prison at half term because they are undocumented. 

Hey just to let you know they do stop and stay in Canada too and we have the same problems. I am not saying it shouldn't be allowed but if they come here they should have the same expectations as everyone else for taxes, health care work etc. I also don't think it is fair that we need to change the beliefs and traditions of our country because they may be offended...you came here, not saying they have to change their beliefs but don't make us change ours.

CNJ4EVA

@Oohgurl‌ Makes great points, too. I guess I have mixed feelings.

DiFazette

I'm all for immigration reform... Mine would look like this - temporary visa for 2 years. Learn/pass all required tests, stay employed and pay into our system. If you are out of work for 60 days or more - right back you go. It's the hiding from the process that creates the problems, not necessarily the immigrants themselves. If you can do these things, we grant citizenship with a few similar caveats. If they're willing to work and pay taxes, I'm good with it. More than I can say about some of my neighbors and acquaintances.

blush64

Oohgurl said:

Meh, a lot of it is bullshit. Not all of them are hispanic migrant workers (which there are visa's available for, they just dont apply for them). Many come from Russia or China or Albania or pick a country because they 'fear' their country. Yet, they transit through France, U.K., Canada, etc to get here. Why not stay in all those countries, if they 'fear'. They are opportunist... I have seen so so so many tax returns where they claim their 12 dependents that don't even live in this country. They are sucking this country dry. They don't have health care, so they walk in get their treatment, have their kids for free while Susy Smith born here has to go bankrupt because she got behind on medical bills. 

They protest that they should be treated the same but (to my OP) will happily take the get out of prison at half term because they are undocumented. 

I also wanted to say that there are a large amount of people who enter Canada and stay illegally and they do cost us a huge amount. And there are many people using our healthcare that aren't paying in. (As well as our many other social services)

I think this sort of thing is a problen in many places.

Karicomo

nola78 said:

DiFazette said:

nola78 said:

I had drafted a reply and I don't know where it went.  I cannot figure out this new format.  Anyway.  I was going to talk about the prison health care issue.  My H worked as a prison physician for a year and saw so many mentally ill patients with self-inflicted injuries.  It was really sad.  It's also more cost effective to treat some conditions vs. let them go.  I get that some people think that those on death row or with life sentences shouldn't have healthcare, but I disagree.  

I can't speak to what incarcerated healthcare does or doesn't do... But I do know that it's shameful we treat prisoners better than our military and elderly. How the hell can an inmate (who is living off my tax dollars) get immediate care but our veterans wait month upon month for an appt with the VA docs and hospitals. It's disgusting.

Where is the data showing that inmates get immediate care for non-emergent issues and VA patients wait months and months?  I think this is an assumption that people make and it really isn't true.



As a veteran and pt in the VA health system, ive had to wait a month to get an appt to be seen for a back issue and when i went i waited 3 hours past my appt time. Ive had to wait 3 weeks to get in with a podiatrist on more than 1 occassion

DiFazette

@karicomo - thank you for your service.

flyliceandcoffee

MOtownMama said:

I live in WA state where pot is legal. My only issue with it is, unlike alcohol, there is no way to test to verify if you are currently under the influence. So, if caught driving erratically and your blood is tested for the presence of pot, you can claim you smoked earlier in the day or the day before. I worry that high drivers will make the roads less safe.

Completely late to the game since I was sick for the past 3 days, but this is actually not true. Here in CO, where pot is also legal, they can and do test you to see if you are currently under the influence. There is a set limit based on a lot of research that can determine at what ratio your THC level is to your blood. I don't remember the specific numbers off the top of my head, but it is being used and if your level is within a specific range (that everyone I know who does/has smoked agrees with) you will be cited for a DUI.

As for making it legal, I was a little skeptical at first, but seeing how much in taxes it has brought in within just the first 3 months alone, I am all for legalizing and taxing the crap out of it.

And I can't remember mine for the life of me.