question

fivesecondrule

Ok. A girl is 20 weeks pregnant and has her first routine ultrasound. The tech does not say anything during the scan but is silently crying and sniffing during the procedure. Later, in comes the doctor with bad news. The baby has all of the markers for trisomy 18 and "does not have a face" (Don't have any more details on the face thing, but that is what she is always saying). They booked her a room at the hospital that evening to have an abortion. She declines the abortion and wants to carry on with the pregnancy, leaving it in the hands of God to heal her child. Fast forward to her c-section and the baby is born perfectly fine to the surprise and delight of her and her doctors.

Ok, my question is, is this normal to encourage abortion without an amnio or ANY OTHER testing? I've known people with "markers" who went on to other levels of ultrasounds. I totally think this girl is full of shit, but i really don't know. We live in a very religious/conservative area, and I just don't see the doctors in this area trying to force an abortion without other testing. We also have very good hospitals and care in the area. Thoughts? This supposedly happened 5 years ago. She has been talking about it for years, but now is writing articles and getting published about her experience. 

notreallyirish

Abortions are typically not performed in a hospital for one thing, so that gives me pause right there.

ToastieSimons

I've been to 2 OBGYN's, 2 MFM's and a geneticist.  

My sons have a pretty severe genetic disorder.  The only person to suggest termination was our geneticist.  The MFM's didn't even encourage an amnio.  With DS1 he didn't show issues until 36 weeks and they sent me for a Level II ultrasound immediately.  They offered me an amnio however at that point I was full term and would probably deliver before answers were back.  The amnio could also rupture my amniotic sack sending me into labor and we wouldn't have enough fluid for the testing.  Blood is much more reliable for testing as the DNA is more stable. 

The second MFM we were looking for signs of DS1's genetic disorder.  My OB and MFM both repeatedly reminded me that an amnio was an option, but noone brought up termination.  And I had already had an ultrasound and a Level II.

Our geneticist told us to terminate and use IVF to conceive when we got DS1's diagnosis the day after I found out I was pregnant with DS2.  Whne we said no she encouraged a CVS or wait for an amnio and termination.  But we again declined.  She was very respectful but she dropped termination and even wrote the orders for DS2's bloodwork without requiring a visit.

fivesecondrule

I do know two people who legitimately had babies with trisomy 18. One ended the pregnancy and one delivered. The one that ended was in a hospital, but I think they called it an induction. Sometime between 22-23 weeks. 

ToastieSimons

joirish said:

Abortions are typically not performed in a hospital for one thing, so that gives me pause right there.

Yes they are. If I chose to terminate my pregnancy after an amnio with DS around 20 weeks I would have had it performed in a hospital.  

although I would think most medical professionals would refer to it as termination, especially that late in the game.

notreallyirish

ChristiniBellini said:

I do know two people who legitimately had babies with trisomy 18. One ended the pregnancy and one delivered. The one that ended was in a hospital, but I think they called it an induction. Sometime between 22-23 weeks. 

Some hospitals do offer them, but most do not largely for insurance reasons. I would not think any doctor or hospital would be apt to rush anyone into an abortion even if they provided them for liability reasons. I mean, if this woman's story were true and she had terminated she could/would have sued the ever living shit out of that hospital, doctor, tech, janitor...

Andrewsgal

It sounds like a huge scare tactic and I don't buy this story for one second. The next step would be an amino or blood test. This is crap the anti choice side wants to spread.

ToastieSimons

I still want to know what "doesn't have a face means"...so, strange?  

notreallyirish

ToastieSimons said:

joirish said:

Abortions are typically not performed in a hospital for one thing, so that gives me pause right there.

Yes they are. If I chose to terminate my pregnancy after an amnio with DS around 20 weeks I would have had it performed in a hospital.  

although I would think most medical professionals would refer to it as termination, especially that late in the game.

I wasn't trying to be insensitive. I know terminations can be performed in hospitals, but most are not. I said in my other post it was to do with insurance, but further reading points to
a variety of bureaucratic reasons having to do with state and private ownership of hospitals.

Edit: weird double quote

ToastieSimons

Notchotchke said:

It's also highly unlikely the tech was crying. I doubt it's the first time they've seen something abnormal on a scan and would be extremely unprofessional. If it is true that she was crying she needs to find another profession. And I'm with ag, scare tactic through and through.

very true.  both of my babies had abnormal scans and the techs said NOTHING.  they were straight faced through it all. The OB told me at my visit post ultrasound.  The MFM came in after the tech and went back to DS2's cord and showed me where there were there only 2 vessels and what it means.

notreallyirish

ToastieSimons said:

I still want to know what "doesn't have a face means"...so, strange?  

With midline malformations sometimes the sides of the face don't meet. A cleft palate or lip is caused this way. This is just far more severe. DH delivered a baby that didn't really have much of a face above the mouth. It had other catastrophic problems as well and didn't survive long.

ToastieSimons

joirish said:

I still want to know what "doesn't have a face means"...so, strange?  

With midline malformations sometimes the sides of the face don't meet. A cleft palate or lip is caused this way. This is just far more severe. DH delivered a baby that didn't really have much of a face above the mouth. It had other catastrophic problems as well and didn't survive long.

I can't imagine a medical professional of any sort telling their patient that their child "doesn't have a face".  They would be saying "we noticed some abnormalities that lead me to believe" such and such.

rosesandpetals

No way they would book an abortion without even giving the parents time to process the news. I call b.s.

notreallyirish

ToastieSimons said:

joirish said:

ToastieSimons said:

I still want to know what "doesn't have a face means"...so, strange?  

With midline malformations sometimes the sides of the face don't meet. A cleft palate or lip is caused this way. This is just far more severe. DH delivered a baby that didn't really have much of a face above the mouth. It had other catastrophic problems as well and didn't survive long.

I can't imagine a medical professional of any sort telling their patient that their child "doesn't have a face".  They would be saying "we noticed some abnormalities that lead me to believe" such and such.

I would hope not. But this is some lay person's description, so I assume that is just how she understood it.

rosesandpetals

ChickenOnSunday said:

roses&65335678 said:

No way they would book an abortion without even giving the parents time to process the news. I call b.s.

Just a lurker who doesn't belong here. I am a member of  a FB community for a medical condition called Mother's of Omphaloceles. There are multiple women who post in my group that were PUSHED by their doctors to terminate their pregnancy when their baby was diagnosed with the abdominal wall defect. 

Yes but 2 minutes after the dx? My cousin had a serious birth defect, not compatible with life, really awful defect, and the Dr just said this is what the results say, let's schedule a consultation to discuss. You can't tell.someone halfway through their pregnancy that they should get an.abortion right this minute.

magentawarped

Yeah, I smell bullshit.

penguingrrl

I don't believe any part of her story.

1) The u/s tech is a medical professional. While she certainly wouldn't be chatting away glibly during such an u/s she would not be crying. It's not the first sad u/s she has performed and will not be the last. She is a professional and trained to handle such circumstances tactfully.

2) Trisomy 18 would be diagnosed via an amnio or CVS (going by the fact that this claim is from 5 years ago, prior to the blood tests that are currently being used were available). They would never give that diagnosis without having confirmation of it or based on a single u/s. (and I know this from several friends who have had babies diagnosed in utero with T13 and T18) It's a pretty long process to confirm that diagnosis.

3) No MD would be telling her such devastating news and expecting her to go to a hospital that night to end the pregnancy. Not without a second opinion, a confirmation of diagnosis or time to mourn. Even if they advised her that termination is the best option given an actual diagnosis, they wouldn't handle it that way.

Every word written there sounds like the kind of lies put out by the anti-choice crowd to scare people into thinking a medical diagnosis is only a guess.

notkateanymore

Was it Tim Tebow's mom?

Tigger & pooh

You can't have a termination performed with out a waiting period. She is exaggerating or completely lying.

Andrewsgal

Anti choice propaganda is always the same bull shit. I have literally heard this story in 10 different ways.

rosesandpetals

Tigger & pooh said:

You can't have a termination performed with out a waiting period. She is exaggerating or completely lying.

Oh, that's a good point. And a lot of places you can't do.It after 20 weeks even if the mother's life is at risk.

rosesandpetals

ChickenOnSunday said:

roses&65335678 said:

ChickenOnSunday said:

roses&65335678 said:

No way they would book an abortion without even giving the parents time to process the news. I call b.s.

Just a lurker who doesn't belong here. I am a member of  a FB community for a medical condition called Mother's of Omphaloceles. There are multiple women who post in my group that were PUSHED by their doctors to terminate their pregnancy when their baby was diagnosed with the abdominal wall defect. 

Yes but 2 minutes after the dx? My cousin had a serious birth defect, not compatible with life, really awful defect, and the Dr just said this is what the results say, let's schedule a consultation to discuss. You can't tell.someone halfway through their pregnancy that they should get an.abortion right this minute.

I can only retell what was posted in the group and they made it seem like the doctors told them they needed to terminate the pregnancy after discovering the defect. Again, this was multiple women seen at hospitals all over the country. It wasn't isolated to only small hospitals. 

This was not my situation. We got the diagnosis during the anatomy scan when an u/s tech reentered the room with a doctor and two med students. We got the skinny about what we were facing and they performed the amnio. Next we met with the geneticists and they let us know our options for termination or continuing the pregnancy. We were given the options in a non-pressure situation. 

The women I previously referenced did not have that same experience. They were pushed to terminate. 

If that is true then it is awful and I feel really bad for those women. Though I would for sure be getting a new ob in the future. Someone with more professionalism.

Mrs.Hizzo

In my experience, it doesn't happen that way. My second son had a 1/5 chance of Trisomy 13, based on the nucheal scan and blood work. My doctor immediately scheduled me for an amnio, which thankfully showed normal development.

fivesecondrule

scatteredtrees said:

Did you read this on Facebook, or was it a chain letter? 

she told me parts of it in person and ive seen her articles pop up here and there. Christianity today just picked it up which sparked my irritation over it again. What is your problem?

notreallyirish

ChristiniBellini said:

scatteredtrees said:

Did you read this on Facebook, or was it a chain letter? 

she told me parts of it in person and ive seen her articles pop up here and there. Christianity today just picked it up which sparked my irritation over it again. What is your problem?

I don't think the harshness was necessarily directed at you. More at the lady that's spreading this hard to believe tale. It just seems like one of those internet stories without a source. It's weirder that this has a source. I wonder if she's exaggerating, making some of it up, all of it up or what.

notkateanymore

Again, was it Tim Tebow's mom?

Seriously though, as a person who has had an abortion...you don't just get them 5 minutes later no matter how much you want to have one. As somebody who has a friend who aborted due to issues with the child, there are like 4th, 5th and 6th opinions before anything is done.

Disneygeek77

Well that certainly didn't happen with me.  Seven years ago,  I had a level II scan and they speculated DD had a certain heart defect that is more common in Tri 21.  They then talked to me about an amnio.  No one suggested termination at any time.  

jenniann87

This story seems to be just that a story. Coming from someone who had a child with T18, they will not rush you into having an abortion or making any diagnosis without blood work. With our first baby my OB seen some markers in the 20w u/s and sent us to see a specialist at MFM. They did extensive level 3 ultrasounds, bloodwork and a MRI before they would confirm that it was T18. Abortion/termination was never a thought for us but even if it would have been the MFM made it clear that it wasn't something that they would do.

notreallyirish

larkin220 said:

joirish said:

ChristiniBellini said:

scatteredtrees said:

Did you read this on Facebook, or was it a chain letter? 

she told me parts of it in person and ive seen her articles pop up here and there. Christianity today just picked it up which sparked my irritation over it again. What is your problem?

I don't think the harshness was necessarily directed at you. More at the lady that's spreading this hard to believe tale. It just seems like one of those internet stories without a source. It's weirder that this has a source. I wonder if she's exaggerating, making some of it up, all of it up or what.

@scatteredtrees‌ That was not harsh. Come on people.


I didn't think it was harsh. Wrong word I guess. OP took it wrong and I was trying to expand on what scattered said so OP didn't get defensive.

Andrewsgal

ChristiniBellini said:

scatteredtrees said:

Did you read this on Facebook, or was it a chain letter? 

she told me parts of it in person and ive seen her articles pop up here and there. Christianity today just picked it up which sparked my irritation over it again. What is your problem?

Actually I think scattered was pretty nice. We are all irritated because this is the same story the anti choice people use over and over. People like you that believe and spread it just perpetuate this crap.

fivesecondrule

I posted because the story bothered me a lot, but everyone around me is buying it and making me feel like a dick for questioning it. I guess you all are much smarter.

 

bumpuser8448316

ChristiniBellini said:

I posted because the story bothered me a lot, but everyone around me is buying it and making me feel like a dick for questioning it. I guess you all are much smarter.

 

So if everyone else was saying they're going to jump off a bridge would you go jump off a bridge? Seriously, think for yourself.

fivesecondrule

I apologize if I offended anyone. That was not my intention. Seriously. I think I made my intention clear on why I asked so I’m not sure what else I can say about it?? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

lyingliarlies

it's way too "i had to walk 10 miles uphill both ways to school in the snow every day without a coat or shoes" to be real. sure there has been an US tech who has cried, a crazy dr. who has suggested terminating before thoroughly evaluating a patient, a dr. who explained this condition as "baby without a face" when they thought that was the best way for the patient to understand what the diagnosis meant. but no way in hell that all of it happened at one time. anyone who believes it is very naive and it makes me angry that this is getting any media attention.