Dog Behavior Advice

Miggg

There seem to be a lot of knowledgable fur-moms on this board so I thought I'd throw a couple of furbaby issues I've been having out there. Anyone have any advice on either of these two situations?

1) My two dogs are BFFs but one gets a little jealous occasionally. Sometimes if she's snuggling with us on the couch she'll growl when our lab approaches to come join. I have been scolding her and kicking her off the couch when she does this. The dog/babies thread made me question this though. Is it wrong to discipline a dog for growling when that's their way of communicating a feeling? What should I be doing?

2) Last year DH got a package in the mail with bubbles and popped them really loudly to tease me because I think it's annoying. It was just  one time but It scared the crap out of one of the dogs who now runs and hides whenever a package is delivered. Her package-phobia expanded now so whenever we open anything, even a box of cereal, she runs away. Last night she even ran away when we started chopping vegetables. Should we make her confront her fear? Or keep letting her go to another room and hope she eventually gets over it?

hatrats

I don't know what to tell you for #1, but for #2, I would just let the dog run into the other room if it's scared of something.  My dog is scared of the vacuum cleaner but I'm not going to make him sit there while I shove it in his face.  He just runs to the other end of the house, or I let him outside when I'm vacuuming.  I would think trying to get an animal to confront its fears might make it even worse since they don't understand what is going on.

Miggg

hatrats said:

I don't know what to tell you for #1, but for #2, I would just let the dog run into the other room if it's scared of something.  My dog is scared of the vacuum cleaner but I'm not going to make him sit there while I shove it in his face.  He just runs to the other end of the house, or I let him outside when I'm vacuuming.  I would think trying to get an animal to confront its fears might make it even worse since they don't understand what is going on.

That's kind of been our thought process so far. Just getting worried lately since it seems to be getting worse instead of better. (i.e. it started with box deliveries then spread to any package and now any sound in the kitchen basically) Hate seeing her so scared every time.

ykristos

I'm not a dog behaviorist (I think we have one on the board, though, which is cool!) but I would say: 

1. You shouldn't be correcting her growl, but you can correct her behavior. From my understanding, it is well within your right to communicate the dog that you do not agree with her possessiveness by asking her to get down from the couch.

2. It depends on how much these fears get in the way of her functioning/if they are going to snowball into more anxiety. My dog is a rescue and never had much socialization with other dogs as a young pup. His excitement/uncertainty turned to outright fear when he was attacked by an off-leash dog. That, obviously, needed to be confronted since we live in such a dog-friendly city and pass at least 2-3 strange dogs on each work. As hatrats said, it's less about "confronting" and more about desensitizing. If you feel so inclined, you can try starting small by opening a cereal box and asking her to remain seated/calm, and praising/treating for small steps and positive behavior. 

FunSizeGrl

We have a dog that is afraid of a lot of things. Like random stuff. For example, he's pretty fearful of frisbees. So we sit it on the ground and put treats close to it. He'll grab the treat and back up from it. Each time we move the treat closer and then sit treats on top of it. He still doesn't love it but it makes that thing seems less scary. I'd just leave some boxes and bubble wrap on the ground for a few days so he can approach it on his own terms and see what the deal it. Don't make a huge deal out of it. And when he does go to sniff it give lots of praise.
It's hard to say about the growling. Dogs naturally see every member (human/animal) of the family on a totem pole. Your one dog must see the lab as bellow her. Not a bad thing, that's just the way dogs function. As long as it doesn't result in fights I personally wouldn't care about it. Just as long as she sees you/your husband as the TOP of the totem pole. 

Mamazon2014

I have two dogs who get jealous of each other too, but the growls are usually harmless and turn into them grumbling at each other for a few minutes before they get over it.

As far as the scared dog, Our male is a 95lb chicken. Bags, boxes, balloons, drawers closing, his own farts, he jumps at everything. We don't try to make him confront it, but we will leave things in the open so that he can examine it on his own time and grow accustomed.

I think the key with introducing your dogs to LO is just taking it slow. We have a doggy gate for our living room so we plan on putting baby in there during the day where the dogs can see it and then eventually building up to allow them in while LO is in the pack and play. As much as I love my dogs and don't think there will be many issues, I will never just leave them and LO alone together because you cannot fully predict what an animal will do.

LunaBug924

We just finished a basic obedience course with our dogs. We have 2 beagles who we rescued. They are great dogs but DH and I felt that WE were the ones who really needed the training so that we were prepared to handle potential situations when/if they arrise.

I specifically asked about the growling thing after it was brought up. Mind you, there are several different schools of thought on this. Take this for what it's worth, and I'm sure others will chime in with a different opinion. Here's how he explained it to me, and it made a lot of sense. You are not going to train your kid not to upset the dog. Your child is the superior being, so it is the dog who needs to be corrected. Start now by doing things to your dog that a child will; surprise them while sleeping, hug them around their neck, crawl on their bed or near their food dish while they are eating, pull the ears, etc. If the dog starts showing aggression, immediately correct the behavior by putting them in a sit or a down. Praise the crap out of them if they tolerate it. Once the dog is desensitized to you doing it, they'll be more tolerant of a child.

As far as noises and the like, you should try to make them confront it. But I was warned that you will need a ton of patience. He called it "bomb proofing". Try closings doors to rooms your dog would normally hide in. Then start making noises like banging pots and pans. Your dog probably will cower, but keep doing it and do NOT try soothing the dog. Only if/when they stop being afraid should you offer any verbal praise or a treat. He also suggested setting up things like the baby swing or anything else for baby that will make noise and just turn them on while you're home to let the dog get used to them.

I thought it was all good advice. Like I said, take it for what you will. Good luck!

ErikaLynn75

I'm also not an expert, but here's my thought:

I don't feel it's necessary to discipline your dog for growling, because as you said that's just how he naturally expresses his feelings. But you do need to let him know that he's not in control in that situation. He wants the other dog to go away. I'd respond by giving attention to the other dog to let him know that you make the rules and there's plenty of attention to go around.

As far as the fear, I'd probably let it go if it's not causing a huge disruption. My dog barks at things when she's scared, so that's annoying. When we have something she's scared of, we sit on the floor with it and pet it and talk to it in a soothing voice the same way we talk to her when she's being good (it sounds ridiculous, but yeah). That lets her know in her own language that it's something we like and it's not going to hurt us. Then we give her an opportunity to come up and sniff it (coaxing her with treats if we need to) and she's usually ok after that. 

cweiss04

1) I think the first step is to not let you dogs on the couch....in the wild who ever is on the highest ground is in authority and is the leaader......the leader sits on the highest ground so since your on the couch with the dogs right there you two are equals and the other part is that the dog being on the couch when approached by the other dog makes him feel empowered due to being higher up then the dog that is approaching....if it seems to happen when one dog is on the couch I would keep both dogs off the couch...I know its hard trust me im the woman that bought leather couches just for the dogs lol but I learned from a great trainer the dogs cant be on the couch....

2) this is a harder one to handle without me being there to see the severity of it......the key I have found that works is to distract the dog with positive reinforcements....if the dog has a thing for tennis balls then while your making the loud noise throw the tennis ball so hell chase it....if he likes doggy treats give him the treats continuously while the loud noise is being done....the key is to change there thinking and association of there fear.....I had a puppy mill dog that was afraid of everything and I used this technique a lot and it worked over time....you almost have to retrigger there brain pattern.....hope this helps....

 

FunSizeGrl

It isn't easy, but our dog isn't allowed on the couch either. It just isn't his place. He has his space (his crate) and we have ours. Couch and bed mainly.

Miggg

Thanks so much everyone for the advice. I think I'll try the slow desensitizing route for the packages starting with a really quiet package and her favorite treats.. Next time she growls at her brother I'll remove her from the couch and re-focus our attention to him so the growling gets her the opposite of what she wants. The only thing I don't think we can do is exile our pups from the couch/bed. They both seem to have no problem with our authority and snuggle time is our favorite.

jsaffer01

I have 2 dogs a boy and a girl. The girl is a rescue she's 2 1/2 yrs and the boy I got from a friend who's dogs had pups he is 10mos old. My girl dog growls at him when she is laying down on the couch and he comes to lie down too but lays kind of on her. I just reassure her that he is fine and there is no need to get upset. As for dogs on the couch, I love snuggle time with my pups but they both know they are not allowed on the couch unless invited up. So that way we humans still have control of them and are the alphas in this relationship. Now for the being scared thing, my girl dog is scared of a lot of things. We don't know her history she was 6-8months old when we got her. All we knew was that she was skiddish around men. So when we took her home we found out she's not a fan of going through doorways. We worked a lot at desensitizing her for that. We have this one little hallway that she flies through because she's scared to go through it. She also hates loud noises if I drop something she stays out of that room for a few days. We just let her do her thing she will eventually realize that noise isn't coming back so it's safe to be in that room again. And these past couple of days she hides behind me and shakes when my husband talks to me. We have been getting into a few arguments and I think she's scared of the raising of the voices. But again we just reassuring everything is okay. And just wait for her to calm herself down. So I think just taking it slow with the boxes and giving the dog treats and praise it should get a bit better.

Hallil

Whew, finally found this! I think I'm the resident May 2014 dog trainer, but maybe I'm not alone, you've had some wonderful feedback! I will agree 100% with the counterconditioning idea, and without getting too much into it (because you're not leaning that way anyway) scrap everything about correcting for fear behaviors and pack leader stuff. The alpha dog stuff derived from a study done on wolves, that was actually INCORRECT and that said, just because dogs treat other dogs one way what makes us think we can pretend to act like dogs and get the same results? It just doesn't make sense. Anyway, enough about that!

With the fear you can counter condition (which means when something appears that is scary, something better appears that is amazing.) You do that to the point where the scary trigger elicits a more tolerant or happy response in anticipation of the amazing thing. Once you have changed the association your dog will be less fearful of many things. One thing to keep in mind with this is that for some dogs relief from the scary thing can be the biggest reward! It's not counterconditioning, but it is called functional reward. You can reward your dog for looking at the scary thing, moving towards it, touching it (if you can get to that point) but make sure you toss the rewards back behind the dog. This will teach them that making the effort to come forward gets them both a reward and some relief. If you keep rewarding closer and closer then your dog might move up, but the stress levels will still be rising. And you're essentially bribing at that point and your dog is thinking more about the reward than the emotional switch of not fearing what ever the scary thing is. You can get the same result using either, but you will get faster results by adding relief as part of the reward. I hope that makes sense, it's so much harder to explain it typing it out than it is to show!

As for the growling at the other dog as some people have mentioned don't make a big deal out of it, but you do lose privileges if you're going to act like that (ie, no more couch time.) Some dogs are much more vocal than others, and that could be the case here, but either way the dog shouldn't feel the need to keep warning the other one off and YOU get to decide what's appropriate. I would send the dog off the couch and invite the other dog up any time the growling starts. Behavior=consequence that the dog doesn't like will get the dog thinking a little bit about holding back instead of growling.  

Miggg

@hallil Great advice, thanks so much! According to Fedex tracking I have a package coming today so I've got her favorite treats ready to go!

Magheeta

Hallil said:

Whew, finally found this! I think I'm the resident May 2014 dog trainer, but maybe I'm not alone, you've had some wonderful feedback! I will agree 100% with the counterconditioning idea, and without getting too much into it (because you're not leaning that way anyway) scrap everything about correcting for fear behaviors and pack leader stuff. The alpha dog stuff derived from a study done on wolves, that was actually INCORRECT and that said, just because dogs treat other dogs one way what makes us think we can pretend to act like dogs and get the same results? It just doesn't make sense. Anyway, enough about that!

With the fear you can counter condition (which means when something appears that is scary, something better appears that is amazing.) You do that to the point where the scary trigger elicits a more tolerant or happy response in anticipation of the amazing thing. Once you have changed the association your dog will be less fearful of many things. One thing to keep in mind with this is that for some dogs relief from the scary thing can be the biggest reward! It's not counterconditioning, but it is called functional reward. You can reward your dog for looking at the scary thing, moving towards it, touching it (if you can get to that point) but make sure you toss the rewards back behind the dog. This will teach them that making the effort to come forward gets them both a reward and some relief. If you keep rewarding closer and closer then your dog might move up, but the stress levels will still be rising. And you're essentially bribing at that point and your dog is thinking more about the reward than the emotional switch of not fearing what ever the scary thing is. You can get the same result using either, but you will get faster results by adding relief as part of the reward. I hope that makes sense, it's so much harder to explain it typing it out than it is to show!

As for the growling at the other dog as some people have mentioned don't make a big deal out of it, but you do lose privileges if you're going to act like that (ie, no more couch time.) Some dogs are much more vocal than others, and that could be the case here, but either way the dog shouldn't feel the need to keep warning the other one off and YOU get to decide what's appropriate. I would send the dog off the couch and invite the other dog up any time the growling starts. Behavior=consequence that the dog doesn't like will get the dog thinking a little bit about holding back instead of growling.  

There's a lot of truth to this! I will say though, it is important to remain in charge of the dogs at all times. Call it alpha, or whatever else you'd like, but you are the boss and have final say no matter what. Sometimes you are required to step in and remind the dogs that you are boss and certain behaviors will not be tolerated.

With great power comes great responsibility.  Dogs' ways of thinking are black and white - there's no gray area, so whatever you decide the rule to be for the dog, you have to stick with it 24/7. Consistency is key. 

I love how @hallil mentioned throwing the treat behind the dog when rewarding good behavior. You don't want it to turn into a bribe, so this makes the dog feel like they are doing "work" and being rewarded, not bribed. If they are showing fear of something, bring the thing close to them and feed treats until they are calm enough to not run away. It will take time to get them comfortable, but it will happen. Patience, grasshopper. Make sure to include lots of praise and love, too.

Always reward good behavior. I try to keep treats with me as much as possible to reinforce good behavior in my puppy. 

My step-mom is Wonder Woman when it comes to animals, and she's an excellent dog trainer. I've learned a ton from her over the years. I can honestly tell you, the more work you put into training and building a relationship with your dog, the more it will be returned to you, even 10-fold by your dog. I am a firm believer in positive-reinforcement, so anything you can think of to make the dog feel like they're doing their "job" make sure to reward it. They will definitely feel the love. 

As for baby, lots of trainers recommend bringing baby things around the dogs and praising them for good behavior, whether it's gentle interest, or no interest at all. As long as there isn't any aggression. Once baby is here, have DH get a blanket with the baby's smell on it, and introduce it to the dogs before you and baby get home. Treat the dogs as they're smelling it so they associate reward with the baby. This will help with the transition, too.  Of course, always keep an eye on the dogs with baby. You know your pups best, so you'll be able to tell what kind of behavior is okay, and what isn't.  

Once baby is here, it will be hard to maintain the same type of relationship with your dogs for a while. DH and I are doing our best to prepare for it, but there's only so much we can do. The dogs will adjust, but it will take time. I agree with PP that said to start getting the dogs used to behaviors the baby will do. 

Miggg

Great points - thanks @Magheeta! It's amazing how effective yet difficult consistency is. Good practice for human babies though - DH and I have already had previews of a lot of the behavior/parenting talks I'm sure we'll have in the years to come!

Btw I love your siggy more than anything ever. Every time I see it I crack up! I have a similar pic from my A/S but it's not half as awesome without the Santa hat.

Magheeta

@kelseyandrobert it sounds like your mom's dog is showing your dog that your dog is in its "territory." I'm surprised your mom's dog licks your dog's mouth bc that's usually a sign of submission. Overall, it sounds like they're just trying to figure things out. Just keep an eye out, and always reward good behavior. I'm curious to hear what @hallil thinks about this, too.

Laurab1686

Pretty much in line with the rest of your feedback!

#1 it is totally appropriate to remove the dog off the couch. U r communicating to her that being with u guys up there is a priveleage and that behavior won't b tolerated. Yelling doesn't really work on dogs because to them they think u r just getting in on the fun! Remove the dog from the couch and wait until u see the behavior u want to see until u let we back up! Our Pom can be a jerk to our bigger dog and we have to do the same with him.

#2 We have a dog that is super anxious and What has been recommended for us is positive reinforcement so the dog begins to associate the scary thing with positive things like treats. For example, pay attention to when pup is getting anxious, is it when u guys go to get the mail or when u go into the cereal cabinet? Or is it only when pup sees the package/box? The concept is the same for both, have one of u start treating pup before the trigger (ie going to get the box or the box itself) with lots of praise. Then introduce the box at a distance continuing to treat and praise. Do this for maybe 10 min each day eventually building up to the dog eating a treat off a box itself. This method has really helped us with vacuum, laundry room door, and washer and drier. Only thing it hasn't really worked on is thunderstorms...thunder is the bane of my dog's existence! Good luck!!

julesf817

Hallil said:

Whew, finally found this! I think I'm the resident May 2014 dog trainer, but maybe I'm not alone, you've had some wonderful feedback! I will agree 100% with the counterconditioning idea, and without getting too much into it (because you're not leaning that way anyway) scrap everything about correcting for fear behaviors and pack leader stuff. The alpha dog stuff derived from a study done on wolves, that was actually INCORRECT and that said, just because dogs treat other dogs one way what makes us think we can pretend to act like dogs and get the same results? It just doesn't make sense. Anyway, enough about that!   

Thank you for posting this! do you mind me asking where you studied/got certified as a trainer? i've done some apprenticeship and stuff, and a lot of work with shelter dogs, and i really would love to get into training as a profession. your advice is spot on, IMO!

Hallil

Jules51814

I started with fostering with a rescue group, and they kept sending me challenging dogs because I would research and do whatever I could to get them better. The dogs got more and more challenging lol. Then I joined my local kennel club, then started taking some courses online (there are lots out there, but most don't "mean" anything.) I worked at the local shelter for 2 years before being laid off when I got pregnant with DD and while there started my diploma in Canine Behavior Science & Technology with the Companion Animal Sciences Institute. It was a very thorough course but I would recommend different ones now for the amount you invest and what you get out. After a couple years with the kennel club they asked if I would instruct with them for obedience classes, so I have done that for 3 years now. A year ago I started doing private one on one training and last summer did group classes outdoors. I also applied to write my CPDT-KA with the CCPDT last summer and wrote in September and passed so I'm certified CBST & CPDT-KA, I will probably work towards the next level as time goes on. I just leased my own building for classes and am going to start January first with new sets of beginner obedience, puppy classes, nosework and tricks. Along with my one on one clients and 'training days (daycare.)

Where are you from? If you are looking at taking any courses let me know what you'd like to spend and how much you'd like to get out of it and I can send you some links. There are the bigger ones (Victoria Stillwell, Karen Pryor Academy, etc) that you'll pay a lot for the endorsement, but they do have good work. If I had to do it again I'd probably take Jean Donaldsons, in fact I may try to do it in the future anyway. There are also so many seminars that are great to take that are all over the place, I have taken quite a few (though I'm limited up in the middle of no where, ha!!) I also have a huge collection of books and DVD's that I would be lost without. I learn so much from watching (and then trying) that Tawzerdog has been a huge savior for being stuck up here.