Likelihood of miscarriage?

boxerbabylove

BeeBee08 said:

@playingonadream - nobody (at least I don't think) thinks you caused a problem here.  You did have a legit concern and question and asked it in a very tactful way.  You have every right to ask that question.  Don't blame yourself and please don't stop asking questions, it's the only way we will learn, especially us FTM's. 

Thanks, I needed that.

I was hoping today would be better but to be honest, I've been in tears after reading some of the comments I've seen here in this thread. I'm not a mean person, anyone that knows me in RL knows that my intention is NEVER to cause harm. My husband saw how upset I was this morning and asked me what on earth could possibly got me so upset this early in the morning.

Words do hurt people. Just because you can't see the person on the other side of the computer does not mean that they aren't a real live human being with feeling just like you.

To those of you that defended me and saw the real (non-malicious) reason for the post and answered my questions and concerns I truly appreciate it. The support is not unnoticed and it is appreciated.

I think I'm going to take little break, go cry a little in the privacy of the office bathroom and get myself a cupcake. if I'm luck the cupcake might even stay down!

Serenla

eme520 said:

I you @Bookshelves!

I second this.

leighbball

@playingonadream I agree with @BeeBee08 that you did NOT cause a problem.  I think a lot of people are on edge from things that have happened recently coupled with the stress of the first tri and hormones.  This is supposed to be a positive place to come to for support and ask questions, and that's exactly what you were looking for.  I'm sorry it didn't turn out that way completely, but I certainly hope that you don't let it deter you from asking questions in the future.  We are here for each other, or at least I hope we are.  

poppylove14

I went to sleep last night thinking about this post and to wake up seeing it have gone even further is upsetting. @playingonadream I totally see where your heart was on this and I hope you've been able to take a step back and get some rest. I wish everyone on this board would take a chance to think about what someone is really meaning before they go out to attack them. It is the Internet and it is really hard to read things in the way they are exactly meant because we all put our own tone into the reading. That being said I also think people need to be really thoughtful about their posts as to not offend. Everyone here is hormonal, everyone here is scared. Nobody wants a loss or would wish that upon anyone. We are all here for the same reason. People can't be limited to what they post about it is a free board but we can all take a step back and think before we hit post reply.

thomas930

tiffy81 said:

All I'm saying is there a PGAL board....where mc and loss support is given. It just seems like every question or post is answered with a mc story. That's disheartening for FTM that want to relish in the excitement. I'm not a FTM mom. I have a DD and 2 skids. I've never experienced a loss and I feel for everyone who has. It would just be nice to not have such a fear filled board. And whoever disagrees well that's fine. I honestly stand by the OP and everything that I've posted. Pregnancies aren't always sunshine and roses but why purposely rain on a FTM post when she's asking about ultrasounds or morning sickness?? Why does every answer have to involve mc? Is that fair to those of us who haven't experienced a loss?

You must really be butthurt over something....I suggest if you don't want to hear about the reality of being pregnant you should leave. I have 2 living children, I've been through 4 pregnancies...I have quite a bit of experience under my belt. I have to say I before my loss I was naive to think that since I've carried two pregnancies to term that I would never experience a loss....boy was I wrong and did my world come crashing down that day. I think it would be doing a disservice to women if we weren't honest. I hope that you NEVER experience loss but you will ever know what it feels like until you've been in our shoes. 

Twirple

I have been on the Bump for 3 years now, and this is the third BMB I have been a part of.  These early loss posts are a part of it.  They are always hard to read and we all hope that we will not have to post one.  Sadly, loss is a part of pregnancy.  When we all get out of the first trimester, these will slow down, but they will not stop.  On my first BMB, we had several late term losses and one woman gave birth and her son lived for 18 hours.  I still remember her son's name.

Being on a board like this, you can get support, but it is harder than in real life.  In your day to day life, you may know a maximum of 5 pregnant women at one time.  Even if you do talk to them regularly, you probably don't talk to them every day.  When you get on a BMB, you are talking to thousands of women who are in the same stage of pregnancy, therefore you will hear about a larger range or experiences, including loss.  It is sad, but is a fact.

I am a positive person, even with my loss I tried to remain positive.  I completely understand trying to grasp the statistics to find out what your chances are of having a full term, healthy pregnancy.  I hope some ladies are able to find comfort in the numbers.  And for those who can't, there is always chocolate.

TheatreStar86

playingonadream said:

BeeBee08 said:

@playingonadream - nobody (at least I don't think) thinks you caused a problem here.  You did have a legit concern and question and asked it in a very tactful way.  You have every right to ask that question.  Don't blame yourself and please don't stop asking questions, it's the only way we will learn, especially us FTM's. 

Thanks, I needed that.

I was hoping today would be better but to be honest, I've been in tears after reading some of the comments I've seen here in this thread. I'm not a mean person, anyone that knows me in RL knows that my intention is NEVER to cause harm. My husband saw how upset I was this morning and asked me what on earth could possibly got me so upset this early in the morning.

Words do hurt people. Just because you can't see the person on the other side of the computer does not mean that they aren't a real live human being with feeling just like you.

To those of you that defended me and saw the real (non-malicious) reason for the post and answered my questions and concerns I truly appreciate it. The support is not unnoticed and it is appreciated.

I think I'm going to take little break, go cry a little in the privacy of the office bathroom and get myself a cupcake. if I'm luck the cupcake might even stay down!

Huge hugs to you, @playingonadream! I thought you asked the question incredibly respectfully and really do commend you for asking. For awhile, I thought this post was in a pretty healthy place and then, of course, some comments sent people off. You, however, have been really respectful and kind. That's all we ever wanted. 

figgs0831

tiffy81 said:

How do we start a board that focuses on the pregnancy that we have now and not losses? I'm not trying to offend anyone but I would love a board where the focus is the future and not past losses and goodbyes.

Look @tiffy81 I birthed and buried 2 babies.  I'll be damned if someone tells me not to discuss them.  That is a HUGE part of my life, not to mention what I'm focusing on getting me through THIS pregnancy.  Are you going to tell the other women who had successful pregnancies and births to NOT discuss their past (i.e. their living children).  I don't think so.  I am appalled that this even came out. 

ETA: I finally finished reading this ridiculously long post.  I've been through a number of BMBs and this is normal territory.  This happens when EVERY NEW MONTH appears.  Just wait a few weeks and see what the May board will be like.  I try to give support in the best way I can. Just because I have a history, doesn't make my support any less valid.  Shit happens. Life throws  curveballs.  People need to understand that stuff like this does happen.  It doesn't mean it will happen to them, but they should be aware. 

Poppy715

ColleenSwerb said:

It's REALLY important to remember that soon enough we'll be past the really scary part of pregnancy. ANY board is going to have mc worries at this stage of the game because it's a huge part of pregnancy this early.

:::lurking from TTCAL:::

I'm sorry but I have to. You've hit a sore spot with me and I'm sure many others. The whole thing is scary. There is no magical fairyland second/third/full-term trimester where losses no longer happen. You are always at risk. Thousands lose their LO's after delivery as well. PG is risky. Creating human life from scratch is so much work and terribly hard on your body. Yes the likelihood of m/c goes down each week but you are never fully "safe". Just like regular everyday life.

BeeBee08

Poppy715 said:

ColleenSwerb said:

It's REALLY important to remember that soon enough we'll be past the really scary part of pregnancy. ANY board is going to have mc worries at this stage of the game because it's a huge part of pregnancy this early.

:::lurking from TTCAL:::

I'm sorry but I have to. You've hit a sore spot with me and I'm sure many others. The whole thing is scary. There is no magical fairyland second/third/full-term trimester where losses no longer happen. You are always at risk. Thousands lose their LO's after delivery as well. PG is risky. Creating human life from scratch is so much work and terribly hard on your body. Yes the likelihood of m/c goes down each week but you are never fully "safe". Just like regular everyday life.

Oh come on.  She never said that anyone would ever be fully "safe", she said that once we are out of this stage, every other post won't be related to loss.  I understand people are at risk all the time, but statistically, we will deal with this a lot more in the first few months than late in the game.  Let's put things into context here.  And I'm sorry for your experiences.

jgreig83

I am sick of seeing the abbreviation FTM....unless you have a living, breathing child you are not a FTM. I was pregnant, lost the LO and now am pregnant again. I am still a FTM at the end of this pregnancy. That being said, make a first time pregnant board where you can discuss these issues without having someone be honest with their past experiences. I agree that this process is frightening, and sometimes our posts back can seem a bit to the point, but this is a forum. If you don't like the answers you get then don't post. We have a long time ahead of us and we will all be upset by something some says on here. In real life you can't just go around and avoid difficult people or situations.

AcaAwkward

tiffy81 said:

How do we start a board that focuses on the pregnancy that we have now and not losses? I'm not trying to offend anyone but I would love a board where the focus is the future and not past losses and goodbyes.

Here's the thing... The Bump (not to mention Life In General) does not operate in a vacuum.  We each bring our past experiences to the table when we join a BMB.  For many ladies on this board, those past experiences include loss or infertility.  You can't ask those women to leave that "baggage" behind.  As we move forward, there will be less discussion of early loss, but each stage of pregnancy brings new challenges (and joys!)... In a month or so, women due at the beginning of April may choose to have NT scans and there will be posts about scary results. There will be posts about struggles with GD and high blood pressure and other frightening complications. There will be posts about going into labor entirely too soon, trips to the ER to get steroid shots for still-developing lungs, shortening cervices (WTF the plural of cervix seems really weird...), etc.  Simply put, your imaginary board for FTMs that doesn't discuss early loss at all wouldn't remain puppies and rainbows for very long. 

I'm not pointing all of this out to be a Debbie Downer, but, to be realistic, pregnancy isn't a rose garden for many women.  Personally, I believe women who have experienced pregnancy hardships before are an asset to the board... just as all the women experiencing pregnancy for the very first time have tons to contribute as well. 

If the posts about loss upset you, skip them.  If you want more posts about happy things, start them.  Not to get all hippie-dippie but... you're in control of your own experience here. 

jap618

@playingonadream I think you asked your question appropriately and tactfully.  I'm sorry you are so upset.  I know it's hard for a lot of us PgAL because there are mean, rude and malicious people out there (and even on here) so it can be hard for me to figure out the tone (as it is for you guys with me) when I don't know any of your or your intent. 

My original nurse told me that as many as 50% of first time pregnancies end in miscarriage (I have no idea where she got that statistic) and then 1 in 4 pregnancies ends in a loss.  Having 1 loss does not have any bearing on whether you will have a 2nd loss or not but having 2 consecutive can increase your chances of having a 3rd. 

I would highly recommend spending some time on google & on reputable websites and do your own research, you will find lots of stories and some will be heart breaking and others will be happy endings (as you will see if you venture over to PgAL also!!).   (((hugs))) I think this can all be ok.

 

And for @tiffy81 @nursewinnie and @bthlgh <<these are also girls that "loved" the post yesterday.  You guys will not be missed by me & please do not let the door hit you on the way out.  I cannot even begin to accept how inconsiderate and rude you ladies have been to myself and the rest of the PgAL community.  We do have a board and quite a few of us hang out there, along with here.  Even on your little "utopia" FTP board ladies would inevitably miscarry and you would be saying good bye to at least a portion of those ladies.  It happens; it's life; deal with it or get out.   

bthlgh

jap618 said:

@playingonadream I think you asked your question appropriately and tactfully.  I'm sorry you are so upset.  I know it's hard for a lot of us PgAL because there are mean, rude and malicious people out there (and even on here) so it can be hard for me to figure out the tone (as it is for you guys with me) when I don't know any of your or your intent. 

My original nurse told me that as many as 50% of first time pregnancies end in miscarriage (I have no idea where she got that statistic) and then 1 in 4 pregnancies ends in a loss.  Having 1 loss does not have any bearing on whether you will have a 2nd loss or not but having 2 consecutive can increase your chances of having a 3rd. 

I would highly recommend spending some time on google & on reputable websites and do your own research, you will find lots of stories and some will be heart breaking and others will be happy endings (as you will see if you venture over to PgAL also!!).   (((hugs))) I think this can all be ok.

 

And for @tiffy81 @nursewinnie and @bthlgh <<these are also girls that "loved" the post yesterday.  You guys will not be missed by me & please do not let the door hit you on the way out.  I cannot even begin to accept how inconsiderate and rude you ladies have been to myself and the rest of the PgAL community.  We do have a board and quite a few of us hang out there, along with here.  Even on your little "utopia" FTP board ladies would inevitably miscarry and you would be saying good bye to at least a portion of those ladies.  It happens; it's life; deal with it or get out.   

I certainly did NOT love that post yesterday! I was as offended and upset by it as anyone!
Wow I'm totally blindsided by this.

figgs0831

I don't get the FTM/FT Pregnancy post either.... Doesn't first time pregnancy imply that you are going to be a FTM?  I've had prior pregnancies, I do not have living children.  Technically any time after 20ish weeks, I'll be in new territory along with the rest of you and will hopefully officially be a FTM.

  Where does the segregation of the BMB end?

Poppy715

BeeBee08 said:

Poppy715 said:

ColleenSwerb said:

It's REALLY important to remember that soon enough we'll be past the really scary part of pregnancy. ANY board is going to have mc worries at this stage of the game because it's a huge part of pregnancy this early.

:::lurking from TTCAL:::

I'm sorry but I have to. You've hit a sore spot with me and I'm sure many others. The whole thing is scary. There is no magical fairyland second/third/full-term trimester where losses no longer happen. You are always at risk. Thousands lose their LO's after delivery as well. PG is risky. Creating human life from scratch is so much work and terribly hard on your body. Yes the likelihood of m/c goes down each week but you are never fully "safe". Just like regular everyday life.

Oh come on.  She never said that anyone would ever be fully "safe", she said that once we are out of this stage, every other post won't be related to loss.  I understand people are at risk all the time, but statistically, we will deal with this a lot more in the first few months than late in the game.  Let's put things into context here.  And I'm sorry for your experiences.

I don't see how every other post is related to loss. I see all kind of nonsense and most of it isn't about loss.

All I am pointing out is that you are never out of danger of losing a pg. I did agree the chances diminish as your pg goes on, but there are still risks. Getting out of the first tri and past even V-day doesn't mean you get a take home baby. I just wanted to bring this to light. So many women are totally oblivious to the risks and scary parts of pregnancy. I'm not calling her out I'm just saying you could still have some good-bye posts even after the first tri.

jap618

bthlgh said:

@playingonadream I think you asked your question appropriately and tactfully.  I'm sorry you are so upset.  I know it's hard for a lot of us PgAL because there are mean, rude and malicious people out there (and even on here) so it can be hard for me to figure out the tone (as it is for you guys with me) when I don't know any of your or your intent. 

My original nurse told me that as many as 50% of first time pregnancies end in miscarriage (I have no idea where she got that statistic) and then 1 in 4 pregnancies ends in a loss.  Having 1 loss does not have any bearing on whether you will have a 2nd loss or not but having 2 consecutive can increase your chances of having a 3rd. 

I would highly recommend spending some time on google & on reputable websites and do your own research, you will find lots of stories and some will be heart breaking and others will be happy endings (as you will see if you venture over to PgAL also!!).   (((hugs))) I think this can all be ok.

 

And for @tiffy81 @nursewinnie and @bthlgh <<these are also girls that "loved" the post yesterday.  You guys will not be missed by me & please do not let the door hit you on the way out.  I cannot even begin to accept how inconsiderate and rude you ladies have been to myself and the rest of the PgAL community.  We do have a board and quite a few of us hang out there, along with here.  Even on your little "utopia" FTP board ladies would inevitably miscarry and you would be saying good bye to at least a portion of those ladies.  It happens; it's life; deal with it or get out.   

I certainly did NOT love that post yesterday! I was as offended and upset by it as anyone! Wow I'm totally blindsided by this.

Oh sorry, my mistake.  But really with all of the white knighting you've been doing, it's hurtful none the less. 

bthlgh

I certainly did NOT love that post yesterday! I was as offended and upset by it as anyone!
Wow I'm totally blindsided by this.




Oh sorry, my mistake.  But really with all of the white knighting you've been doing, it's hurtful none the less. 

Omg - you just come in here and incorrectly accuse me of loving something terrible and then tell me that defending people who have innocent questions is wrong and hurtful? First of all you have no idea what I have gone through. Geez, Talk about hurtful. Just. Plain. Nasty.

jap618

bthlgh said:

I certainly did NOT love that post yesterday! I was as offended and upset by it as anyone! Wow I'm totally blindsided by this.

Oh sorry, my mistake.  But really with all of the white knighting you've been doing, it's hurtful none the less.  Omg - you just come in here and incorrectly accuse me of loving something terrible and then tell me that defending people who have innocent questions is wrong and hurtful? First of all you have no idea what I have gone through. Geez, Talk about hurtful. Just. Plain. Nasty.

 

You're not defending the OP, and if you read what I wrote nothing negative was said about the OP.  You are defending the mean, hurtful people who are bashing the PgAL community.

bthlgh

No I'm not. And I'm done here. Oh I'm sure "I can let the door hit me on the way out". But I hope you are proud of yourself. I'm hurting too but you don't really give a shit about anyone else. There's no convincing you you're wrong about me because you are just one of those people. Bye bye!

Serenla

Cheers then.

squeakyfrog15

@maelic I'm going to go back to your chemical pregnancy post, because even though you weren't saying they aren't losses your post hurt! I had a chemical pregnancy in may. I was two weeks late before I found out I was pregnant. My hcg was 32. A week later I started cramping and bleeding! Hcg was back to none. So NO not every cp happened before women know and not all happen before 3 weeks. A Miscarriage 6 weeks and below is considered a chemical pregnancy! So just so you know statistics are statistics and pregnancy is pregnancy. Every time and person is different! I hate that this thread turned into this. It was a simple question that got taken the wrong way after being answered. I'm not tryin to start stuff or be mean. But sometimes information is wrong and I wante you to know the truth, at least from my experience. Good luck to you in your pregnancy!

jgreig83

I have more class than to say anything about the door hitting you on the way out, BUT I will say:

J&NL

jap618 said:

@playingonadream I think you asked your question appropriately and tactfully.  I'm sorry you are so upset.  I know it's hard for a lot of us PgAL because there are mean, rude and malicious people out there (and even on here) so it can be hard for me to figure out the tone (as it is for you guys with me) when I don't know any of your or your intent. 

My original nurse told me that as many as 50% of first time pregnancies end in miscarriage (I have no idea where she got that statistic) and then 1 in 4 pregnancies ends in a loss.  Having 1 loss does not have any bearing on whether you will have a 2nd loss or not but having 2 consecutive can increase your chances of having a 3rd. 

I would highly recommend spending some time on google & on reputable websites and do your own research, you will find lots of stories and some will be heart breaking and others will be happy endings (as you will see if you venture over to PgAL also!!).   (((hugs))) I think this can all be ok.

 

And for @tiffy81 @nursewinnie and @bthlgh <<these are also girls that "loved" the post yesterday.  You guys will not be missed by me & please do not let the door hit you on the way out.  I cannot even begin to accept how inconsiderate and rude you ladies have been to myself and the rest of the PgAL community.  We do have a board and quite a few of us hang out there, along with here.  Even on your little "utopia" FTP board ladies would inevitably miscarry and you would be saying good bye to at least a portion of those ladies.  It happens; it's life; deal with it or get out.   

THIS!! How are you even grouping the women that have been posting their "goodbyes" and 'fairwells" with the PGaL ladies? Some of those women are FTM's so regardless if you did have another board, I can guarantee there will still be goodbyes. We are in the first trimester right now. M/C happen all the time, regardless if us "PGaL" ladies are on the board or not. Geez, I can't believe the pure ignorance I've seen the past two days. I honestly pray none of y'all that are saying these insensitive things ever have to suffer a loss and if you have, shame on you for being such a twat. 

ekmebm

And for the record : what happened to someone else with their body and their pregnancy doesn't mean it will happen to you. Miscarriages aren't contagious via the interwebs. Bad things happen to good people but pretending they don't doesn't stop them from happening. You are all mother's now....you all love the baby you are carrying and as long as their heart is beating you will worry. You will worry about your pregnancy, and SIDS and choking and electrical outlets and swimming pools and guns at friends houses and cars and bikes and alcohol and kidnappers and lightning and plane crashes. The worry will never, ever stop. But asking the PgAL girls not to post here isn't going to stop you from worrying and it won't stop life from happening. There is a quote that "the decision to have a baby means you will spend the rest of your life with your heart on your sleeve" and it's accurate. You sensitive types better thicken up your skin before watching the news post partum....I fear you'll never survive it.

poppylove14

Some of these posts are honestly so rude. I wish the feeling of support was extended to all members of the board. I am so sorry to what happened yesterday in regards to the troll. That was so horrible and it hurts me that someone would say that to people who have already gone through such a hard loss. It also hurts me that members of this board are constantly attacking other members of this board! Telling people to leave the board and being happy when they do is just plain rude! With the exception of trolls of course. It feels like we are all a part of the movie mean girls.

Serenla

poppylove14 said:

Some of these posts are honestly so rude. I wish the feeling of support was extended to all members of the board. I am so sorry to what happened yesterday in regards to the troll. That was so horrible and it hurts me that someone would say that to people who have already gone through such a hard loss. It also hurts me that members of this board are constantly attacking other members of this board! Telling people to leave the board and being happy when they do is just plain rude! With the exception of trolls of course. It feels like we are all a part of the movie mean girls.

Meh, never seen it.

Serenla

eme520 said:

Ohhhh, mean girls GIF off?

Do it!

maelic

squeakyfrog15 said:

@maelic I'm going to go back to your chemical pregnancy post, because even though you weren't saying they aren't losses your post hurt! I had a chemical pregnancy in may. I was two weeks late before I found out I was pregnant. My hcg was 32. A week later I started cramping and bleeding! Hcg was back to none. So NO not every cp happened before women know and not all happen before 3 weeks. A Miscarriage 6 weeks and below is considered a chemical pregnancy! So just so you know statistics are statistics and pregnancy is pregnancy. Every time and person is different! I hate that this thread turned into this. It was a simple question that got taken the wrong way after being answered. I'm not tryin to start stuff or be mean. But sometimes information is wrong and I wante you to know the truth, at least from my experience. Good luck to you in your pregnancy!

I never said all CP happen before a missed period, you misunderstand. I said that the one-in-four statistic is grossly inflated because of CP that miscarry before the mother even knows she was pregnant in the first place. It is one of the complaints some doctors have about early testing, since it can lead to positives that still result in a regular period. 

The definition of a chemical pregnancy is simply a miscarriage that happens before week 5 or so of gestation, before the pregnancy can be confirmed via an ultrasound. It doesn't make it any less of a miscarriage, nor does it make it any less of a loss for the expectant mother. 

I know the statistics. I was saying that by the time you have missed your period, the one-in-four statistic that was being bandied about earlier in the thread is no longer applicable. 

poppylove14

Lol! Love this. I can't see the second one though. Rainbows and smiles cake sounds so good

KatieGummow

maelic

And can I say that I hate the "you're all mothers now" thing? I'm not a mother. I'm a pregnant woman. Hopefully I will be a mother come April. 

Twirple

poppylove14 said:

Lol! Love this. I can't see the second one though. Rainbows and smiles cake sounds so good

J&NL

Lol! Gifs are my new favorite. 

poppylove14

Bummer it still won't show maybe it's my phone. What quote is it?

Oh my goodness! I love those cakes. Will make one day and post a pic of me eating the whole thing and then we will all just be happy

squeakyfrog15

Sorry @maelic I gotcha no worries!:) I wasn't comfortable enough to join the loss bored a after because I didn't feel many accepted it as a loss, but I appreciate you clarifying:)

Serenla

I want cake with a passion now. A layer cake with strawberries mmmmm.

maelic

No problem, squeakyfrog, I really did not want to minimize your loss at all! I'm very glad wee both have the opportunity to be on this board, here's to April coming sooner rather than later!

ekmebm

maelic said:

And can I say that I hate the "you're all mothers now" thing? I'm not a mother. I'm a pregnant woman. Hopefully I will be a mother come April. 

Got it. You're a pregnant woman. What, pray tell then are you pregnant with then? Anticipation? 

Last time I checked it's a baby I'm growing in my womb, and it's one I love and already worry about and that makes me a mom, (well I already was because I have a 2.5 year old)

Regardless of whether or not you take home a baby in 9 months, you became a mother when that line was positive on that stick. You carried a baby, one you loved, one you worried about and if you're not lucky enough to hold in your arms in April, one you will grieve over.

Meanwhile, while you were busy bunching your panties up into a big wad, you totally missed my point.

maelic

I am pregnant with an embryo, currently, but I do not have a child. 

Respectfully, you are free to call yourself a mother but don't call me one. 

boxerbabylove

Come on ladies. Let It Die. At this point I'm just so sorry I ever started this thread in the first place. I got my answer, 5 pages of irrelevant posts, insults and nastiness has followed. I think we can safely say the dead horse has been beaten, flogged, and no longer resembles a horse.