1st Trimester
drpayne
member
Interventions: Disturbing Article
drpayne
member
Kind of makes you wonder how on earth women delivered babies for all of those years without doctors there to "help out."
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Re: Interventions: Disturbing Article
meh. There are articles about this every week. Sure, there are a lot of unnecessary c-sections done for convenience but the vast majority are necessary.
I'd take my c-section over the 55 hours of labor and 4 hours of pushing anyday....
Sounds like your might have been necessary but I know that is not the case for a lot of women.
If you're interested, watch the documentary called "The Business of Being Born". I was already set on doing a natural delivery but this documentary helped me even more to confirm my decision.
Women are made to do this. Doing a natural labor has always been something I've felt very strongly about. I'm sure that it won't be easy, but you've been pregnant for (presumably) 9 months, what's an extra day or two... or three ;-) Sure there are absolutely cases when it's necessary. (My mom had to have one with me because I double-breech.)
The documentary states that when a natural delivery is completed and the baby is out, that there's a "cocktail" of hormones that are released that are supposed to help the bond between you and baby. Apparently these chemicals aren't released when you've had chemical relief in your labor and/or you've had a c-section. I know, I'm sure most people are saying that the bond between mother and child after birth is strong regardless. But just for a second imagine how much stronger it could be.
I can't wait to give birth. I know it's going to be painful. I'm not going to say that I'm looking forward to the pain itself, but I'm certainly not afraid of it. GRRR! I CAN DO THIS!!!
THIS. And it's unfortunate, but you're also on a time limit. If you don't go into labor given a certain amount of time, the use of pitocin to speed up labor goes up. Then, because baby wasn't ready to come out in the first place, he's been inside feeling the stronger contractions because of pitocin, and goes into distress. Once the baby goes into distress, they wheel you off to get a c-section. :-(
It's really sad to think about. I'm sooooo looking forward to giving birth at the midwife center. Hopefully it'll work out.
Just wanted to pipe in and say that you a right about a time limit. That is, if you water is broken for greater than 24 hours, your risk for infection is much higher.
I agree that there are way too many C sections performed unnecessarily. I have 3 major issues with my back and I am praying that I can have a vaginal birth. That is why it is so important for me to find a Dr that agrees with me. I have an appt this afternoon and if they do not agree with me, then I will keep looking for a Dr. that does go along with my believes. Now I know that because of my back I may not have an option but I least want a couple of opinions.
Drs are not the only ones to blame, I see women all the time who insist on a C section for a couple of reasons:
- To get the date they want for their childs birthday
- So it fits into their schedule
- Because it will be easier for them
My child comes before my schedule and my pain for however many hours that may be. Plus it is major surgery which affect the weeks after you have the baby.Yep, you're right. And to be totally fair, midwives have a time limit too. Well, they have a time limit as to how long they will wait after your water has broken and you haven't gone into labor, until they decide to intervene. They do the cycle of walking, castor oil and breast pumping to hopefully get labor moving. If that doesn't do it, it's off to the hospital because of the risk of infection.
I was actually speaking to just a general time limit, whether you water has broken or not. It's something they speak about in the documentary. If I'm not mistaken (I haven't seen the documentary in a couple of months or so), they mention some sort of statistic/fact about the length of labor in a hospital; how it never goes higher than a certain amount of time before intervention.
Let me also preface this by saying that my husband is not yet a fan of the midwife center and would prefer the "comfort" of a hospital. Something can certainly be said for having a medical staff around you at all times. But it can also be a scary thought if you think that hospital doesn't ONLY have your well being at heart.
ETA: Spelling error.
AHH! That's cool! Actually, I've always said that if I wasn't artistically inclined, I would have LOVED a career in medicine!
*lurking from TTGP*
I loved that documentary as well, and found it very informative. I plan on doing a natural birth as well and love knowing that I can do it. Best of luck to you!
That's not really true. Public health officials estimate that half of all cesareans in the US are not medically necessary. The WHO says a cesarean rate over 15% is likely to cause more harm than good, and ours was 32% for 2008. I expect it will continue to rise.
So I hardly call that the vast majority being necessary.
You know, I've read the studies on c-sections and bonding and maternal brain waves and all that stuff. I know that having a traumatic birth--vaginal or cesarean--can interfere with initial bonding. I know that my difficult birth probably did affect how I bonded with my baby in the first few days.
On the other hand, I don't like your tone. You are a first time mother right? As someone who's actually had a c-section, when I hear you say "think how much better it could have been," I really want to tell you to STFU.
I watched "The Business of Being Born" and loved it. Very eye-opening.
The hospital dosed me as soon as they put me in the bed so I'd pass out. They didn't ask but TOLD my husband they were giving me pitocin when I couldn't make protest and certainly did not need it. My doctor didn't order it.
Thankfully everything was alright and I did labor well and for 7 hours, but I was super pissed when I saw myself hooked up to more than just fluids. There was no need for the hormones. I was already laboring with contractions every 2-3 minutes and they said that wasn't consistent enough.
whatever.
My Blog
I really don't like this attitude. The state of maternity care is a lot more complex than "I wish women would just educate themselves." I was insanely educated going into my first pregnancy. I had even worked as a doula in L&D for a year leading up to my pregnancy. Guess what, I still ended up with an induction and a cesarean.
Many women go along with what their doctor says because their doctor went to medical school and that's why they are seeing them. I'm not saying doctors are always right or that they should be blindly followed, but I can't fault a woman for taking her doctor's medical advice or not reading up on the latest obstetrical studies on PubMed. And furthermore there are a lot of women who simply don't have the education necessary to do their own research. It doesn't mean they are at fault if they get bad medical care. The onus is on the doctor and hospital to provide quality care.
Have you ever had a baby or breastfed?
You are talking about something you have never even experienced. Watching "The Business of Being Born" does NOT make you an expert. You should chose your words more carefully.
1. the first mistake is taking an article from a "reputable" place like babycenter.
2. iris is THE foremost advocate for VBACs, natural birth and birth choice on these boards. and the most educated i've come across. you'd all be wise to listen up when she "speaks".
3. i love when people without children talk in absolutes. it makes it more fun to watch them fall of their high horse. "i WILL have a medfree birth", "i WILL bf", "it's just lazy uneducated mothers who don't know any better than to have inductions and formula feed" -- bwahaha. i'm taking notes so when we get to 3rd Tri and i have to hear about all the *** that didn't go as you planned i can redirect you to this post.
FTR - i had a completely perfect, un-medicated, intervention-less l&d and BFed for 14 months without a single problem. i'm still not blind or ignorant to the fact that my situation was just as much luck as it was education.
As for the bonding after a section..I am pretty fvcking positve that my DD & I are bonded. I can't go to the bathroom without her knowing. For the record ~ prior to c/s being preformed, women died in childbirth.
It drives me crazy when people preach about stuff that they have "researched" on the internet. I am choosing a c/s this time around because I am not going through 42 hours of labor with out fvcking progressing again. Oh wait ~ that's right..I didn't progress because I got induced early because of pre-e. I suppose everyone thought it was because my doctor was on vacation at the time.
ETA ~ and for the record, I coudn't bf, but my DD could latch. I was the one who could not produce milk...but I am sure you will say that is because the baby wasn't ready to come...really...think you can f-off.
Are you kidding me?
I educated myself during pregnancy. I chose an OB whose practices closely matched what I wanted for my birth experience. At 42 weeks my child was still inside me, and intervention was needed. My NST showed that things weren't going as well in there as they had been just a few days before.
He didn't latch. According to you, this is because he wasn't ready to be born.
You can read everything there is to know about childbirth, but until you go through it, you can not possibly fathom what it is REALLY like.
For the record, after he was born we discovered there was meconium in the water and the cord was wrapped around his neck twice. I wonder what might have happened if I said no to the induction and waited another 2 or 3 days. I wonder what might have happened if I had been induced a week earlier.
And to answer your question about what women did before there were doctors- some delivered healthy babies. Some did not. It wasn't uncommon for women and their children to die from complications due to childbirth.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ::breath:: HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
The sanctimonious azzhattery in this post by women who have never gone through the labor and delivery process or tried to breastfeed is cracking me up. I am writing all your names down, so when you have your perfect med-free birth at 40 weeks and you're posting at 2am wondering why your baby won't latch, I will nod and pat myself on the back for calling it this early.
The Mouse ~ 06.12.08 | The Froggy ~ 02.23.11
I heart you violet. I was very educated about birth and planning a med-free delivery. I had an OB and a doula on board. Then my baby turned breech and before I could get him to turn back, I developed HELLP, which necessitated an emergency c/s to save my life and my baby's life. Getting DS to latch was horrid. I nearly gave up so many times and I nearly resigned myself to having to exclusively pump.
I won't know if it's because he was born at 36 weeks, 6 days or not. But I fought like hell to get him to nurse. I had to pump for the first few weeks and fought hard to get away from the pump. We managed to work it out but it was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. Anyone who thinks they know about breastfeeding who has never done it has absolutely no clue. Come back when you're in the midst of sleep deprivation and the baby blues and a baby who isn't gaining weight from nursing. Hard doesn't even begin to describe it. There is a fair amount of luck involved in the process beyond education.
F you very much. I just loooooved that part of TBBOBB. My kid is so f*cking lucky I didn't eat her like a god damned hamster.
And actually, those hormones are still released when the baby is born, regardless of how. That documentary has it's good points, it's also extremely biased. Lay off the kool-aid.
And as usual, ditto Iris on just about everything. I was educated, I was ready to be my own advocate, etc. You all come back here after you've gone through labor and childbirth, however your kid comes out, and let us know how different it was.
Sarah - 12/23/2008
Alex - 9/30/2011
"I say embrace the total geek in yourself and just enjoy it. Life is too short to be cool." - Shirley Manson, Garbage
drpayne--I ask if you've had a child or breastfed before because while there is nothing wrong with a first timer wanting a natural birth, I take issue with the way you are judging the choices that other women have made when you have never had to make them yourself. It's all well and good to talk about statistics, but when you are 9 months pregnant and someone is telling you your baby could be in danger, it's a very different story. And the way you are dismissing mothers for giving up on breastfeeding is very ignorant. Breastfeeding is complicated and emotional for a lot of mothers. Until you've struggled to latch your baby on at 3 am, you just can't truly understand.
I used to work in L&D in a large, urban hospital. I laugh at the idea of faulting mothers who don't read childbirth books and medical studies. Would it be ideal if everyone did? Yes. But I was just happy to have a mother who spoke English and had prenatal care. If the father was there for the birth, that was a huge plus. Please, go lecture those mamas that they weren't educated enough.
In a perfect world, every patient would be thoroughly educated and advocate for themselves. In a perfect world, medical care would be a partnership between healer and patient and there would be no issues with malpractice litigation, hospital policies and insurance regulations tying doctors' hands. However, ultimately the responsibility for a healthy outcome rests in the hands of the physician or midwife. A patient should *never* be blamed for a bad outcome, no matter how little educated they were.
I don't need you to tell me my c/s was necessary. It probably wasn't. My induction certainly wasn't. I know all the stats on cesarean and VBAC and epidurals and continuous fetal monitoring and Pitocin etc etc etc. I have been advocating for birth options on these boards for 3 years and I have held mothers' hands while they pushed a baby out or got cut on the operating table, while they heard their baby cry for the first time or while their shoulder dystocia baby was being resuscitated next to me or while they were saying good bye to a baby who died before it ever got a chance to live. So please don't lecture me about statistics and choices and what birth should be like.
The Mouse ~ 06.12.08 | The Froggy ~ 02.23.11
I don't think anyone here would have anything to say about your situation except "Thank God you and your child are okay." I didn't make a blanket statement about ALL babies who couldn't latch on. I mentioned ONE article. I didn't claim to be an expert on anything and I'm certainly not attacking anyone.
My ONLY problem is with current hospital birth mentality in general and so many women not even knowing enough to even question their doctors' decisions or ask if/why certain interventions are necessary. I think if a hospital has a 40% c-section rate it is the patient's job to ask why. Giving birth is not prerequisite for having an opinion on this. There are women out there who have given birth multiple times and never questioned a thing... they are not experts either!
I am NOT saying that educating myself will grant me an uncomplicated birth. I AM saying that it can only help me prepare. Anything could happen, which is all the more reason why I want to learn as much as I can about what is going on with my body.
1. Dr. Payne and Lobsters- get off your high horse and realize that no matter how much you plan things will not go the way you plan with your labor, delivery, bf, parenting. I went to every class, read every book I could get my hands on about bf. 3 LCs, 2 OTs and several nurses could not figure out why my DS would not latch. I spend $1500 on consults to find out my son had low tone and would probably not ever BF. "Education" was not going to change that fact. 100 years ago he would have died. Today, I spent 3 of the worst months of my life hooked to an effing pump. That damaged my bond with my child. Not the way my child entered this world. I quit pumping and turned to the evils of FF and suddenly my bond with my child was much stronger. So, yeah for for idealism, but grow up and realize life never goes according to your "plan."
2. Listen to Iris. She is wise. You have no idea how much knowledge she has.
3. There is always a 3.
I REALLY REALLY wish that greater consideration was given to this point. Blanket statements about what is necessary or unnecessary in birth just don't apply to all women.
I experienced a lot of guilt, frustration, and anger following my c-section because of statements similar to those made in this thread. My induction was medically necessary due to complications that were threatening my health and the health or our son. Following that, the c-section was necessary because my son's heart rate was dropping to 40 bpm. (That's FORTY.)
On top of dealing with my own feelings about the loss of my desired birth experience and initial contact with our son, I had to deal with insensitive comments from friends, family, and strangers. For example, when I showed my "push present" to a friend, she commented that it was nice I could keep it since I never pushed. She didn't mean to be hurtful, but I was already a mess about the whole thing and her comment made me feel like a criminal or a failure because I'd had a c/s.
Yes, I'm sensitive about this. But I imagine that I'm not the only one and it would be nice if people would think before they speak.
The fact is, you could end up having a c-section for any number of reasons. And when you feel a thousand pounds of guilt crushing down on you at that moment in time, I hope you will remember your initial comments.
Owen Anders: labor (natural onset), failed VBAC, emergency c/s.
f#ck off and kindly keep your asinine holier than thou comments to yourself. Talk to me after you've had to have an emergency c/s and then a repeat because you aren't a good candidate for a VBAC. I understand wanting to have a natural, vaginal birth. I truly do because that's what I wanted and what I fought for until the end when it just wasn't feasible anymore. My bond couldn't be any stronger with either of my boys. Maybe go through something first before you start being a know it all asshat.
thanks
they will learn. I am not wishing either of our birth experiences on them, but like VV said, once they go through it they should understand better that these type of absolutes just don't cut it with delivering babies.
Owen Anders: labor (natural onset), failed VBAC, emergency c/s.
Birth is beautiful. Period.
Owen Anders: labor (natural onset), failed VBAC, emergency c/s.
Check out the movie "The Business of Being Born." Very interesting movie about this sort of thing. Eye-opening.
ETA: And after watching that, and preparing for a natural childbirth via Hypnobirthing, I ended up with a C-section....because my water broke at 36.5 weeks and I was in labor for 24 hours and never progressed past 1cm, despite the eventual use of pitocin, cervadil, etc. All those things I had "hoped" for my birth went out the window, one by one, because my very stubborn cervix said "It's too early" and was trying to keep baby in when he was ready to come out.
So anyway, all that is to say, educate yourself, prepare yourself, hope for the best, but births tend to go their own way most of the time. At the end of it all I had a healthy happy little boy and we had no problem bonding whatsoever. But I also had a HUGE amount of guilt because I felt that I failed somehow.
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