February 2013 Moms

We vax, they don't. WWYD?

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Note:  this post is not meant to spark a vaccination debate.  I?m just curious what others think.

Anyways, we share a house with BIL, SIL and their 16-month-old, Annie.  The house is divided into two separate suites and the only shared spaces are the laundry room, garage and the yards.

We are vaccinating DS and they are not vaccinating Annie.  There have been recently reported cases of measles in our city and it worries me because DS won?t get the measles vaccine until the one-year vax.  Would you limit your LO?s contact with Annie?  I asked my family doctor and he said no, but an acquaintance who is a pedi said to limit their contact.

 

Honestly, we?re not close with BIL and SIL and the kids don't play together so it?s no real hardship for us to keep them apart.  I'm just concerned about them crossing paths. WWYD?

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Re: We vax, they don't. WWYD?

  • No, I would not avoid contact.
        
  • Assuming your child has no underlying health issues I wouldn't worry about it.
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  • Considering the fact that there have been recently reported cases of measles in your area, I would try to avoid contact.
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  • I would because of the recent outbreak.
    Lilypie - (KNqh)
  • image Teacher Clark:
    I would, all it takes is one exposure. There is a reason for vaccinations. People died from these diseases and still do.


    vaccinations don't protect you 100 percent either....you're still at risk of contracting any disease even if you are vaxed...

  • Living in the same building it's going to be hard to truly prevent exposure (thinking about the shared washing machines and garage), but I would keep a close eye when they're together and be a little more vigilant about disinfecting due to this. I'm not usually a clorox/purell fan or germaphobe, but this is a time I would use those things.
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  • I'd limit contact with unvaccinated kids even if there weren't a measles outbreak.

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  • image Jackigan:
    image Teacher Clark:
    I would, all it takes is one exposure. There is a reason for vaccinations. People died from these diseases and still do.
    vaccinations don't protect you 100 percent either....you're still at risk of contracting any disease even if you are vaxed...

    Jackigan, you're right. vaccines don't necessarily protect 100% of those vaccinated, but immunity rates are pretty high. In fact, per the CDC, regarding the MMR vaccine:

    "Studies indicate that, if the first dose is administered no earlier than the first birthday, greater than 99% of persons who receive two doses of measles vaccine develop serologic evidence of measles immunity."

     

    The argument that vaccines don't work for 100% of those immunized isn't exactly a strong argument in terms of not vaccinating... 

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  • I would because of the recent outbreak.  We recently went out with a mom's group I'm part of online (and sometimes IRL, same city.)   It occurred to me later that a LOT of them are unvaccinated (based on earlier discussions I know this.)  Even though I like them all, we probably won't make a habit of seeing them a lot in real life until both my kids are fully vaccinated.  I just don't want to take the chance, and having that many people all in one big group that are unvaccinated is scary to me.

     

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  • image pitterpatter129:

    I would because of the recent outbreak.  We recently went out with a mom's group I'm part of online (and sometimes IRL, same city.)   It occurred to me later that a LOT of them are unvaccinated (based on earlier discussions I know this.)  Even though I like them all, we probably won't make a habit of seeing them a lot in real life until both my kids are fully vaccinated.  I just don't want to take the chance, and having that many people all in one big group that are unvaccinated is scary to me.

     


    This exactly!
  • image Teacher Clark:
    image Jackigan:
    image Teacher Clark:
    I would, all it takes is one exposure. There is a reason for vaccinations. People died from these diseases and still do.
    vaccinations don't protect you 100 percent either....you're still at risk of contracting any disease even if you are vaxed...
    Your risk is significantly less. Are you saying that since they don't protect 100 percent that there is no need for them? The more people who vaccinate, the more we are all protected. I wouldn't knowingly bring my child around another person who is not vaccinated, especially when there is an outbreak going around. We are seeing a resurgence in many diseases because of the trend for antivax, which in part is due to the erroneous belief in a very poorly conducted study which falsely claimed a link between autism and vaccines. Does a link exist? Maybe, maybe not, but as of yet there has been no real evidence to support this. We have however seen a large decline in certain diseases when vaccinations for those diseases are widely used. As the antivax movement gains momentum those same diseases are coming back.

     

    This is actually false.  The majority of these cases are occurring in fully vaccinated individuals due to vaccine failure.

     There was a significant decline in measles long before the vaccination was introduced in 1963.  By 1955 - that's 8 years before the first measles shot - the death rate had declined by 98%.  

    Measles transmission has been clearly documented among vaccinated people. In some large outbreaks over 95% of cases have been vaccinated.  According to the WHO, the odds are 15 times greater that measles will strike those vaccinated against the disease than those who are left alone.


  • If there is an "outbreak" then yes, definitely. If there are "reported" cases then no, I wouldn't worry much. My neighbor isn't doing any vaccinations yet we are. There are no cases, yet if there were this is what I would follow.
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  • I'm just curious...what happens when unvaccinated kids are ready for public school? Don't most states have vaccination policies before children are admitted to kindergarten? 
  • image uncaripswife:
    I'd limit contact with unvaccinated kids even if there weren't a measles outbreak.

    This. When I was 6 months old, too young for the MMR my mother contracted the measles. I had to live with my aunt for 2-3 weeks with no exposure to my mom. I think they gave me an early dose of the Measles/Rubelae vax too without the Mumps, since you have to wait til 12 months for that.

    Measles can be horrible for the really young. I'd definitely stay away from children/adults that you know aren't vaccinating.

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  • image marionravenwood:
    I'm just curious...what happens when unvaccinated kids are ready for public school? Don't most states have vaccination policies before children are admitted to kindergarten? 

    I think if you have a reason (religion, etc.) or doctor's note, then you don't have to follow that policy. 

     

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  • image Jackigan:

    Measles transmission has been clearly documented among vaccinated people. In some large outbreaks over 95% of cases have been vaccinated.  According to the WHO, the odds are 15 times greater that measles will strike those vaccinated against the disease than those who are left alone.

    That's likely because of risk behavior. If you've been vaxed, you'll be less cautious about contact. If you haven't been vaxed, you'll make sure to stay away from potential outbreaks/carriers whenever possible. I can't really believe that getting the vaccine and having it fail in you (possible) somehow increases your likelihood of contracting the disease.


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  • image Jackigan:

    image Teacher Clark:
    image Jackigan:
    image Teacher Clark:
    I would, all it takes is one exposure. There is a reason for vaccinations. People died from these diseases and still do.
    vaccinations don't protect you 100 percent either....you're still at risk of contracting any disease even if you are vaxed...
    Your risk is significantly less. Are you saying that since they don't protect 100 percent that there is no need for them? The more people who vaccinate, the more we are all protected. I wouldn't knowingly bring my child around another person who is not vaccinated, especially when there is an outbreak going around. We are seeing a resurgence in many diseases because of the trend for antivax, which in part is due to the erroneous belief in a very poorly conducted study which falsely claimed a link between autism and vaccines. Does a link exist? Maybe, maybe not, but as of yet there has been no real evidence to support this. We have however seen a large decline in certain diseases when vaccinations for those diseases are widely used. As the antivax movement gains momentum those same diseases are coming back.

     

    This is actually false.  The majority of these cases are occurring in fully vaccinated individuals due to vaccine failure.

     There was a significant decline in measles long before the vaccination was introduced in 1963.  By 1955 - that's 8 years before the first measles shot - the death rate had declined by 98%.  

    Measles transmission has been clearly documented among vaccinated people. In some large outbreaks over 95% of cases have been vaccinated.  According to the WHO, the odds are 15 times greater that measles will strike those vaccinated against the disease than those who are left alone.

    The idea that "vaccines didn't save us" is one of the oldest, most disproven arguments of the anti-vax "movement." Do some research. I'd recommend starting here:

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccines-didnt-save-us-intellectual-dishonesty-at-its-most-naked/

    Also, the idea that vaccine-preventable illnesses are more likely to strike a vaccinated person is true, sort of. I'm no good at explaining this concept, so I'm going to defer to the CDC:

    "

    This is another argument frequently found in anti-vaccine literature - the implication being that this proves vaccines are not effective. In fact it is true that in an outbreak those who have been vaccinated often outnumber those who have not - even with vaccines such as measles, which we know to be about 98% effective when used as recommended.

    This is explained by two factors. No vaccine is 100% effective. Most routine childhood vaccines are effective for 85% to 95% of recipients. For reasons related to the individual, some will not develop immunity. The second fact is that in a country such as the United States the people who have been vaccinated vastly outnumber those who have not. Here's a hypothetical example of how these two factors work together.

    In a high school of 1,000 students, none has ever had measles. All but 5 of the students have had two doses of measles vaccine, and so are fully immunized. The entire student body is exposed to measles, and every susceptible student becomes infected. The 5 unvaccinated students will be infected, of course. But of the 995 who have been vaccinated, we would expect several not to respond to the vaccine. The efficacy rate for two doses of measles vaccine can be higher than 99%. In this class, 7 students do not respond, and they, too, become infected. Therefore 7 of 12, or about 58%, of the cases occur in students who have been fully vaccinated.

    As you can see, this doesn't prove the vaccine didn't work - only that most of the children in the class had been vaccinated, so those who were vaccinated and did not respond outnumbered those who had not been vaccinated. Looking at it another way, 100% of the children who had not been vaccinated got measles, compared with less than 1% of those who had been vaccinated. Measles vaccine protected most of the class; if nobody in the class had been vaccinated, there would probably have been 1,000 cases of measles."

     

    To be honest, we're really crunchy, and the majority of our friends don't vaccinate. Does it make me nervous? A little, but mostly because E doesn't have all of her vaccines yet. As an RN, I have spent a lot of time researching vaccines. Before DS was born, I re-read all the vaccine inserts, and dabble in the anti-vaccine information out there. The more you question and research (credible, evidence-based information) the easier the decision was to vaccinate.

     

     

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  • image secondaryPULSE:

     

    To be honest, we're really crunchy, and the majority of our friends don't vaccinate. Does it make me nervous? A little, but mostly because E doesn't have all of her vaccines yet. As an RN, I have spent a lot of time researching vaccines. Before DS was born, I re-read all the vaccine inserts, and dabble in the anti-vaccine information out there. The more you question and research (credible, evidence-based information) the easier the decision was to vaccinate.

     

    I have also spent a great deal of time researching, reading package inserts and studies and articles and books after books after books written by credible doctors, neurosurgeons etc. with evidence-based information. Except it was clear to me to choose not to vax. 

    Re: herd immunity: The concept of herd immunity hasn't existed in this country in decades because vaccines don't last a lifetime.  Herd immunity was intended to be applied to a population that had become immune through the natural course of an infection.  It was then applied to vaccinations because they assumed vaccinations had the same type of immunity as natural immunity.  It does not.  Most vaccines lose their effectiveness 2 to 10 years after being given.  This means that at least half the population have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of the diseases they were vaccinated for since early in their life.   At least 50% or more of the population was unprotected for decades. They say we are at risk for resurgent massive epidemics if the vac. rate falls below 95% but we've been living for at least 30-40 years with only half of the population having vaccine protection and no resurgent epidemics have occurred.

    You can't ever get life long immunity to diseases such as measles or pertussis through vaccinations.  So lets say all young children are vaxed - then they may be protected.  But since the vax wears off by adulthood, and adolescents and adults can have pertussis without knowing it (can seem like a bad cold for adults), they can spread it around.  Having been vaxed in infancy MAY have kept them from contracting it as children, but does nothing to stop the spread of the disease.

     


  • image Jackigan:
    image secondaryPULSE:

     

    To be honest, we're really crunchy, and the majority of our friends don't vaccinate. Does it make me nervous? A little, but mostly because E doesn't have all of her vaccines yet. As an RN, I have spent a lot of time researching vaccines. Before DS was born, I re-read all the vaccine inserts, and dabble in the anti-vaccine information out there. The more you question and research (credible, evidence-based information) the easier the decision was to vaccinate.

     

    I have also spent a great deal of time researching, reading package inserts and studies and articles and books after books after books written by credible doctors, neurosurgeons etc. with evidence-based information. Except it was clear to me to choose not to vax. 

    Re: herd immunity: The concept of herd immunity hasn't existed in this country in decades because vaccines don't last a lifetime.  Herd immunity was intended to be applied to a population that had become immune through the natural course of an infection.  It was then applied to vaccinations because they assumed vaccinations had the same type of immunity as natural immunity.  It does not.  Most vaccines lose their effectiveness 2 to 10 years after being given.  This means that at least half the population have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of the diseases they were vaccinated for since early in their life.   At least 50% or more of the population was unprotected for decades. They say we are at risk for resurgent massive epidemics if the vac. rate falls below 95% but we've been living for at least 30-40 years with only half of the population having vaccine protection and no resurgent epidemics have occurred.

    You can't ever get life long immunity to diseases such as measles or pertussis through vaccinations.  So lets say all young children are vaxed - then they may be protected.  But since the vax wears off by adulthood, and adolescents and adults can have pertussis without knowing it (can seem like a bad cold for adults), they can spread it around.  Having been vaxed in infancy MAY have kept them from contracting it as children, but does nothing to stop the spread of the disease.

     


    IMO your last paragraph just shows why people should vax and adults should keep up on all their vaccinations as well, to stop the spread of disease. This is why they recommend that people, especially new parents, gets their pertussis vaccinations.
    Lilypie - (KNqh)
  • image Jackigan:
    image secondaryPULSE:

     

     

    You can't ever get life long immunity to diseases such as measles or pertussis through vaccinations.  So lets say all young children are vaxed - then they may be protected.  But since the vax wears off by adulthood, and adolescents and adults can have pertussis without knowing it (can seem like a bad cold for adults), they can spread it around.  Having been vaxed in infancy MAY have kept them from contracting it as children, but does nothing to stop the spread of the disease.

    This is why adults are supposed to get boosters of vaccinations.  If you bother to visit the doctor or Walgreens once every ten years, then it's pretty much plastered all over their walls that you need a booster shot of many vaccines. I've had a measles and 2 tetanus and a pertussis all in the past 8 yrs.

     

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  • image pitterpatter129:
    image Jackigan:
    image secondaryPULSE:

     

     

    You can't ever get life long immunity to diseases such as measles or pertussis through vaccinations.  So lets say all young children are vaxed - then they may be protected.  But since the vax wears off by adulthood, and adolescents and adults can have pertussis without knowing it (can seem like a bad cold for adults), they can spread it around.  Having been vaxed in infancy MAY have kept them from contracting it as children, but does nothing to stop the spread of the disease.

    This is why adults are supposed to get boosters of vaccinations.  If you bother to visit the doctor or Walgreens once every ten years, then it's pretty much plastered all over their walls that you need a booster shot of many vaccines. I've had a measles and 2 tetanus and a pertussis all in the past 8 yrs.

     

    Yes

    Some vaccines are effective for many years (even a lifetime). Others require boosters (pertussis being one of them). I'll take the (small) risk associated with vaccines any day as opposed to getting the actual illness and potentially having long term consequences. 

                  imageimage
    Homebirthing, babywearing, cloth diapering, young mama to two beautiful babies
    and married to my best friend in the world.
    imageimage
  • image secondaryPULSE:
    image pitterpatter129:
    image Jackigan:
    image secondaryPULSE:

     

     

    You can't ever get life long immunity to diseases such as measles or pertussis through vaccinations.  So lets say all young children are vaxed - then they may be protected.  But since the vax wears off by adulthood, and adolescents and adults can have pertussis without knowing it (can seem like a bad cold for adults), they can spread it around.  Having been vaxed in infancy MAY have kept them from contracting it as children, but does nothing to stop the spread of the disease.

    This is why adults are supposed to get boosters of vaccinations.  If you bother to visit the doctor or Walgreens once every ten years, then it's pretty much plastered all over their walls that you need a booster shot of many vaccines. I've had a measles and 2 tetanus and a pertussis all in the past 8 yrs.

     

    Yes

    Some vaccines are effective for many years (even a lifetime). Others require boosters (pertussis being one of them). I'll take the (small) risk associated with vaccines any day as opposed to getting the actual illness and potentially having long term consequences. 

    Ditto.  You just can't get me into a huge vax/anti-vax debate, I simply can not get wound up about it bc, to me, it's too obvious.  We're pretty crunchy too, but something pretty alarming would have to happen for me to decide I would rather risk contracting a life-threatening disease than have an immunization.  My father lost his father to polio when he was a teenager.  This is a no-brainer for us.   

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