Multiples

SO spontaneous

The thread below got me thinking with the "spontaneous" multiples. At what point is your twins no longer spontaneous? Is it spon. if a not one single action was taken or if anything short of implanting two fertilized eggs, etc. Just curious what the cut off point is.
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Re: SO spontaneous

  • Spontaneous is without assistance ... no medical intervention!
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  • image kelandspence2012:
    Spontaneous is without assistance ... no medical intervention!

    This may be true for fraterna twinsl.  All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

    Natural m/c Oct. 2005

    Dx: balanced translocation and LPD

    TTC since Oct 2011

    BPF 02/19/12, EDD 10/31/12, natural m/c 02/28/12 (4w6d)

    IVF (BCPs starting 10/30/12, ER 11/18/12, 5dt of 1 beautiful, healthy embryo 11/23/12)
    BFP 12/02/12, u/s @ 6w,5d showed 2 HBs! Identical twins!!
    Bed rest from 21w-35w due to short cervix, hospital bed rest from 23w-32w due to PTL
    Our rainbows were born 07/19/13 (36w, 5d)

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • image CNYBride05:

    All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

    Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

    Miracle Twins after 2 years TTC thanks to IVF! 10*18*06
    Lilypie - (6EmG)


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  • image MrsLee04:
    image CNYBride05:

    All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

    Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

    True!  I've read that with IVF the identical twining rate is about 4-5 times that of naturally conceived pregnancy.  I think of spontaneous twins are those from a pregnancy conceived with no medical intervention.

  • I always understood a spontaneous twin pregnancy was one with no medical intervention.

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  • image MrsLee04:
    image CNYBride05:

    All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

    Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

    interesting.  Our RE had a different take and we did not do ICSI or assisted hatching.  It doesn't matter to me how they occurred as long as they are healthy. 

    Natural m/c Oct. 2005

    Dx: balanced translocation and LPD

    TTC since Oct 2011

    BPF 02/19/12, EDD 10/31/12, natural m/c 02/28/12 (4w6d)

    IVF (BCPs starting 10/30/12, ER 11/18/12, 5dt of 1 beautiful, healthy embryo 11/23/12)
    BFP 12/02/12, u/s @ 6w,5d showed 2 HBs! Identical twins!!
    Bed rest from 21w-35w due to short cervix, hospital bed rest from 23w-32w due to PTL
    Our rainbows were born 07/19/13 (36w, 5d)

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • You can also look at it this way:

    w/o the 'help' of IVF you wouldnt have conceived at all, which means it is still a product of the treatment and therefore not spontaneous.

    Proud Mommy to: Boy-1995/Boy-1998/Girl-2003/Boy-2004/Girl-2011/ Fraternal twin girls-2013  

    Lilypie Maternity tickers
  • image MrsLee04:
    image CNYBride05:

    All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

    Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

    In the general population, identical twins occur about .5% of the time, while with ivf, the average rate rises to 1.7% (higher with donor eggs or young mothers).  So while IVF does increase the rate, the odds of this happening are still really small.  Also, more recent journal articles say that assisted hatching, ICSI, and PGD don't increase the odds, although no one is certain exactly what causes the increase. 

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19409556 

    FWIW, my RE and MFM (unconnected doctors in different states) have termed my pregnancy a "spontaneous monozygotic pregnancy" even though I did ivf.  I didn't inquire about the spontaneous part of their separate characterizations, but I just assume it was meant to distinguish a fraternal twin pregnancy in which I had transferred two embryos.

    In the end, I don't think it really matters.  There's no way to tell if my embryo would have split if the egg and sperm had met on their own.  I consider myself pregnant through IVF, and having twins through very small random chance.  My doctors consider it to be a spontaneous twin pregnancy.

    Married 8/2008. IVF with PGD March 2013.
    3/22 ER: 25R, 20M, 15F. 9 genetically normal, and 3 survived to Day 5
    3/27 ET: transferred 1 embryo, beta 9dp5dt=163, 12dp5dt=639
    4/25 1st ultrasound at 7 weeks = identical twins with heartbeats?!!!
    PPROM at 31w, delivery at 32 weeks of two beautiful girls
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  • image PurpleIris30:
    image MrsLee04:
    image CNYBride05:

    All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

    Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

    In the general population, identical twins occur about .5% of the time, while with ivf, the average rate rises to 1.7% (higher with donor eggs or young mothers).  So while IVF does increase the rate, the odds of this happening are still really small.  Also, more recent journal articles say that assisted hatching, ICSI, and PGD don't increase the odds, although no one is certain exactly what causes the increase. 

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19409556 

    FWIW, my RE and MFM (unconnected doctors in different states) have termed my pregnancy a "spontaneous monozygotic pregnancy" even though I did ivf.  I didn't inquire about the spontaneous part of their separate characterizations, but I just assume it was meant to distinguish a fraternal twin pregnancy in which I had transferred two embryos.

    In the end, I don't think it really matters.  There's no way to tell if my embryo would have split if the egg and sperm had met on their own.  I consider myself pregnant through IVF, and having twins through very small random chance.  My doctors consider it to be a spontaneous twin pregnancy.

    This :). Thank you for articulating what I was not able to.  My brain is getting mushy... 

    Natural m/c Oct. 2005

    Dx: balanced translocation and LPD

    TTC since Oct 2011

    BPF 02/19/12, EDD 10/31/12, natural m/c 02/28/12 (4w6d)

    IVF (BCPs starting 10/30/12, ER 11/18/12, 5dt of 1 beautiful, healthy embryo 11/23/12)
    BFP 12/02/12, u/s @ 6w,5d showed 2 HBs! Identical twins!!
    Bed rest from 21w-35w due to short cervix, hospital bed rest from 23w-32w due to PTL
    Our rainbows were born 07/19/13 (36w, 5d)

    Baby Birthday Ticker Ticker
  • I don't think it matters overall, it just mattered in relevance to the question asked here.  And my answer didn't say 100% of the time IVF ID multiples are from embryo manipulation, but that it is more likely based on studies.  That was info that was important in answering the OP's question. 
    Miracle Twins after 2 years TTC thanks to IVF! 10*18*06
    Lilypie - (6EmG)


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  • kiwi443kiwi443
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    image MrsLee04:
    image CNYBride05:

    All ID twins are spontaneous though.  We did IVF, put in 1 embryo and it split.  Nothing to do with medical intervention, totally spontaneous. 

    Not exactly true.  With IVF it is said there are higher rates of ID twins because of all the embryo manipulation, like ICSI and assisted hatching.  Most IVF ID multiples probably wouldn't have been multiples if that egg and sperm had met on their own.  

    This is my understanding as well.

    J - 9/6/09 L and A - 1/17/12
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