Attachment Parenting
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Re: Why French Parents are Superior

  • for some reason it's not letting me make it clicky... 

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  • http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204740904577196931457473816.html

    She was on the Today show too--http://moms.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/02/03/10312701-the-french-are-better-parents-excuse-moi

    I was particularly interested when she said French babies "all" STTN at 2 or 3 months but their parents don't let them CIO.  They sort of wait and see if the baby will work it out on their own before responding.  I'm not sure I believe that would work with all babies.

    I did think it was interesting and I might try to pick up the book if they get it at the library. 

    What she's saying appeals to me in that it isn't "helicopter" parenting, which I'd like to avoid.  However, also doesn't seem AP either.  I'm curious what those of you who know more about AP think.





  • Yeah - I didn't get much from the WP article - like how the heck to they get the babies to sleep all night at that age? I think she is probably making gross generalizations also. 

    I did like what she was saying about meaning it when you say "no." We use NO very sparingly in our house, but when we say it LO *usually* listens. I'd also like to know more about the "frame" she alludes too.

    I agree - I don't think she is really AP - but it isn't "helicopter" parenting either.

    I'm going to watch the today show clip now.  

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  • I don't agree that any particular national group raises better children, but I do believe as a whole, we are creating a dumber, more self absorbed, illbehaved crowd who don't have a lot of regard for their parents. The idea that we are there to cater to every whim is bizarro. The culture of self-sacrifice at their own expense is certainly not paying off with better children.

     

    image Josephine is 4.
  • Hi! Here I am. I think it's a load of bull to make generalizations about an entire culture. I have seen my share of kids having meltdowns in public here in the last 4 weeks, but what do I know?

    The only thing I would feel comfortable saying at this point is that the culture in general is more child-friendly, at least compared to NYC, a place I would deem to be pretty low on the child-friendly scale (socially, not talking about access to kids' activities/playgrounds/etc.) We take DD out to dinner here and the waitresses actually talk to her and treat her like a normal person, not a small kid, if you know what I mean. They take her order with the same seriousness as they take mine, not asking me as the mother, for example, to order for her. But this has also been my experience in other countries outside the US, not just France. At the same time, there are other aspects in which it feels like kids are more kid-like v. their US counterparts. And again, I hate generalizations, so I'd like to make it clear I am only comparing to DD's school in the US. At DD's NY pre-school, kids were not allowed to take pacifiers in the classroom except for if they needed it at naptime. Here, I've seen a few kids in DD's mixed classroom of 3-5 year olds with pacifiers in their mouths during the school session, not just at drop-off or pick-up. This might be a bad example since I don't think there's any correlation between using a pacifier and some of the other things discussed in the article, but it's the first example I can think of where I thought, huh, well that wouldn't fly in the US.

    Those are my initial thoughts. I will continue to ponder this as I live here longer and keep seeing articles about this book pop up again and again.

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  • image lanie30:

    I don't agree that any particular national group raises better children, but I do believe as a whole, we are creating a dumber, more self absorbed, illbehaved crowd who don't have a lot of regard for their parents. The idea that we are there to cater to every whim is bizarro. The culture of self-sacrifice at their own expense is certainly not paying off with better children.

    Other than the dumber part, ITA. We may not be raising children who have high regard for education but their actual intelligence is probably the same.

    I did like the anecdote from the playground where she learned to say no with meaning. Based on my casual observations, I think that respect for authority is something seriously lacking in American households.

    My Mom notes when we were young we would go to dinner and all four kids would sit in our chairs and eat or color or whatever but we never did the "laps around the restaurant" that you see kids doing now. But that is also how we were expected to eat at home.  This may be flameful but IMO a lot of parents are lazy. They chose to let their kids do whatever as because it's too much work to teach them respect and appropriate behavior. And then they wonder why the kids run amok.



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  • image lanie30:

    I don't agree that any particular national group raises better children, but I do believe as a whole, we are creating a dumber, more self absorbed, illbehaved crowd who don't have a lot of regard for their parents. The idea that we are there to cater to every whim is bizarro. The culture of self-sacrifice at their own expense is certainly not paying off with better children.

     

    Agree 100% with your first line. As for the rest, I tend to agree, although not to the same extreme since what I see IRL doesn't necessarily reflect the image I see in the media of "the North American parenting experience." I feel like I've said this before in threads about "helicopter parenting" and maybe even as a response to you saying a similar thing in those, Lanie. I really see the whole self-sacrifice thing as growing out of the trend of raising kids without a family support network. From what I know of the French, both through people I knew before I got here, and now observing things and people when I am scrambling to figure out what to do when I find out DD has TWO weeks off from school every six weeks, I see that, in general, families still get a lot of support here from grandparents, etc. (The state is also very supportive in providing low-cost or no-cost childcare alternatives.) SAHMs are almost non-existent here and the very notion that there are a lot of them on the other side of the ocean is very weird to French women. But, the cost differential of working is so different here because of state subsidies AND grandparents seem to do a lot.

    I have just two close French friends, so take what I am saying with a grain of salt, but regarding the upcoming late Feb. school closing, both are shipping the kids off to the grandparents' while they work and so are a majority of their friends. I am not one to usually feel like a martyr, but the fact that I need to push back all of my work projects for the second-half of the month because I have no one around to help me with DD makes me feel a twinge martyrish in the face of DH's inability to take even 1 day off from work in those two weeks. And I've already tried to schedule family to visit during DD's 2-week school break in April.

    I hope that makes sense. It's possible that my extreme surprise at and inability to logically process the school vacation calendar here is making me ramble.

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  • image Booger+Bear:

    I did like the anecdote from the playground where she learned to say no with meaning. Based on my casual observations, I think that respect for authority is something seriously lacking in American households.

    I think it has as much to do with the general society as with the way individual parents do things (who, obviously, are influenced by the society they come from). Quite frankly, I've only been here 4 weeks and I am already over the extreme displays of authority. I actually much prefer the American system in this regard. I got a finger wagged at me at DD's school the other day for picking her up 5 minutes late. In the US, DD's school director is not "above" me. I like to think we're equals, as women who both care about my child's well-being. Here, the school director is most definitely the authority figure and it would never, ever be acceptable for me to call her by her first name or address her in any way that would make it seem like we're equals. That has been my experience dealing with every government official and anyone in an administrative position, even something as simple as registering DD for ballet classes.

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  • I do like the "frame" idea of giving the child a lot of freedom within a frame of basic structure and discipline. It's easy to say that America is suffering because of parents who "want to be their kids' friends instead of authority figures", but at the same time I can point to many examples of negative things that happen when parents are too authoritarian and children never really learn to stretch themselves or solve their own problems OR they see it as a world where the bigger and stronger dominate the smaller and weaker and act on it when they become the bigger and stronger. I really like the Positive Discipline idea of Kindness and Firmness where you picture a vertical and horizontal line, or axes. One line represents how kind or unkind a parent is, and the other represents how firm or weak a parent is. Now divide it into a square with 4 quadrants: One is Kind and Firm, One is Kind and Weak, one is Unkind and Firm, and the other is Unkind and Strong.  Unkind and Strong is usually abusive or at least super authoritarian, Unkind and Weak is kind of lazy and neglectful, Kind and Weak is the parent who sets no boundaries, and Kind and Firm is what most of us strive for. And sometimes we veer a little one way and then overcorrect, but the balance may be the key.

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  • image fredalina:
    I do like the "frame" idea of giving the child a lot of freedom within a frame of basic structure and discipline. It's easy to say that America is suffering because of parents who "want to be their kids' friends instead of authority figures", but at the same time I can point to many examples of negative things that happen when parents are too authoritarian and children never really learn to stretch themselves or solve their own problems OR they see it as a world where the bigger and stronger dominate the smaller and weaker and act on it when they become the bigger and stronger. I really like the Positive Discipline idea of Kindness and Firmness where you picture a vertical and horizontal line, or axes. One line represents how kind or unkind a parent is, and the other represents how firm or weak a parent is. Now divide it into a square with 4 quadrants: One is Kind and Firm, One is Kind and Weak, one is Unkind and Firm, and the other is Unkind and Strong.  Unkind and Strong is usually abusive or at least super authoritarian, Unkind and Weak is kind of lazy and neglectful, Kind and Weak is the parent who sets no boundaries, and Kind and Firm is what most of us strive for. And sometimes we veer a little one way and then overcorrect, but the balance may be the key.

    What is KIND? Though? This is where we part ways. I have 0 intention of being "kind" while she's in the middle of a tantrum. I'm not concerned in the slightest with being kind.

    I'm tough. She knows where my line is. She rarely pushes it but has a ton of energy and enthusiasm. While I don't beat her or yell at her. I give the look of a woman ready to toss her to the wolves if she pulls nonsense. And it works.

    Not concerned with kind.

    image Josephine is 4.
  • Kind = Respectful. Unkinnd = Disrespectful. It is unkind to tell a child, "Oh you are such a baby! Stop crying this instant!" (Or in some other way to imply that the child is a lesser person because of their actions). You can certainly be kind AND firm. I think the "tough" you mention has more to do with firmness, or maybe overall expectations, than kindness.

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  • image Booger+Bear:

    My Mom notes when we were young we would go to dinner and all four kids would sit in our chairs and eat or color or whatever but we never did the "laps around the restaurant" that you see kids doing now. But that is also how we were expected to eat at home.  This may be flameful but IMO a lot of parents are lazy. They chose to let their kids do whatever as because it's too much work to teach them respect and appropriate behavior. And then they wonder why the kids run amok.

    This rubs me the wrong way a bit, it sounds a bit too generalizing. Don't get me wrong, I am a strong believer in dinner at the table and sitting at the table the whole family, also at restaurants, but it really depends on the children's age. Yes, they should not be running around in a restaurant but sometimes I have to let DD take a walk (with one of us) because at 21 months she simply can't sit at a table for long time. My problem at the moment is that waiters (and probably other guests) cannot distinguish between a calm toddler walking around, making sure she can see her parents and a toddler on the run. It is hugely frustrating to have waiters tell me off for having her walk around the table, from my seat to DH's seat. One cultural difference that I have experienced is that in the US people engage more with the children and talk directly to them (perhaps like in France), where here in Scandinavia, they ignore the child and tell the parents that the child need to be in his/her seat. Okay, I'm annoyed at this at the moment, I really wish she would just sit down, perhaps I just need to not go to restaurants with DD for a while :-)  

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  • My problem at the moment is that waiters (and probably other guests) cannot distinguish between a calm toddler walking around, making sure she can see her parents and a toddler on the run. It is hugely frustrating to have waiters tell me off for having her walk around the table, from my seat to DH's seat.

    I'm actually impressed that waiters do this. Good for them. Because they would be the first to lose their job if jr walked into them while they were carrying a load of hot coffee/tea/food.

    Its dangerous.

    image Josephine is 4.
  • image LouiseB2001:
    image Booger+Bear:

    My Mom notes when we were young we would go to dinner and all four kids would sit in our chairs and eat or color or whatever but we never did the "laps around the restaurant" that you see kids doing now. But that is also how we were expected to eat at home.  This may be flameful but IMO a lot of parents are lazy. They chose to let their kids do whatever as because it's too much work to teach them respect and appropriate behavior. And then they wonder why the kids run amok.

    This rubs me the wrong way a bit, it sounds a bit too generalizing. Don't get me wrong, I am a strong believer in dinner at the table and sitting at the table the whole family, also at restaurants, but it really depends on the children's age. Yes, they should not be running around in a restaurant but sometimes I have to let DD take a walk (with one of us) because at 21 months she simply can't sit at a table for long time. My problem at the moment is that waiters (and probably other guests) cannot distinguish between a calm toddler walking around, making sure she can see her parents and a toddler on the run. It is hugely frustrating to have waiters tell me off for having her walk around the table, from my seat to DH's seat. One cultural difference that I have experienced is that in the US people engage more with the children and talk directly to them (perhaps like in France), where here in Scandinavia, they ignore the child and tell the parents that the child need to be in his/her seat. Okay, I'm annoyed at this at the moment, I really wish she would just sit down, perhaps I just need to not go to restaurants with DD for a while :-)  

    If I saw a person and their child of any age walking in a restaurant I probably wouldn't give them a second glance.  I meant a child literally RUNNING through a restaurant with parent chasing them down. And maybe it's a generalization, or maybe I need to start going to different places lol, but I see it happen a lot.

    FWIW I don't know how old we were when they first started taking us out to eat, but we never got up without asking permission to leave the table whether at home or away. It was just the rule, you didn't have to be eating, but you stayed seated until you were excused. As the third child perhaps I saw my older siblings doing as such and simply never thought to get up?



    imageimageimage"Lilypie">image"Lilypie">
  • image Booger+Bear:
    image lanie30:

    I don't agree that any particular national group raises better children, but I do believe as a whole, we are creating a dumber, more self absorbed, illbehaved crowd who don't have a lot of regard for their parents. The idea that we are there to cater to every whim is bizarro. The culture of self-sacrifice at their own expense is certainly not paying off with better children.

    Other than the dumber part, ITA. We may not be raising children who have high regard for education but their actual intelligence is probably the same.

    I did like the anecdote from the playground where she learned to say no with meaning. Based on my casual observations, I think that respect for authority is something seriously lacking in American households.

    My Mom notes when we were young we would go to dinner and all four kids would sit in our chairs and eat or color or whatever but we never did the "laps around the restaurant" that you see kids doing now. But that is also how we were expected to eat at home.  This may be flameful but IMO a lot of parents are lazy. They chose to let their kids do whatever as because it's too much work to teach them respect and appropriate behavior. And then they wonder why the kids run amok.

    ITA. And I don't mean to be all judgmental about it (even though I am) because there are parenting issues that I'm lazy about, too (exhibit A: my son not being potty trained...we tried. failed. and diapers are easier right now). 

    but yes, I've seen, even with some of our good friends the "no, sweetie, mommy said no. stop it right now. you need to stop." and the child doesn't listen because he/she knows that there is no follow through and there never is. the parent just says, "whatever, he/she doesn't listen to anything I say" with a laugh.

    and for the restaurant thing...all kids are different and have different thresholds for what they can be expected to do. my son has, overall, been good at restaurants. he never, ever gets to run/walk around. it's not any kind of an option. period. but we have the same policy at home. and we're pretty darn strict about it. he's not even 3 yet and when he's done eating, he asks us "may I be excused, please?" and if he's eaten a good amount of his dinner and we're mostly done, he's allowed to go play. this didn't happen on it's own, we taught him that this is how one behaves at the dinner table.

    I don't think that DH and I can take 100% credit for this, part of it is that Warner is a good natured kid. I have every confidence that this next baby will do his best to show us how much we don't know, lol. But I think that there is nothing wrong with having high expectations for your kid's behavior and being stern and firm whenever you need to.

     

  • Just so you know, one of the things they talk about it STTN. Supposedly French infants are STTN at 2 or 3 months. Well, Pamela Druckerman (the author of Bringin up Bebe) herself says that the french has the lowest BFing rate of all European countries. And I know that studies say that formula doesn't make a difference in STTN, but I can't imagine my 6 month EBF STTN. My European cousin was telling me I should give my LO 'hungry baby formula.' I haven't even heard of such a thing but it exists in Europe and she said it helped her LO STTN.

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  • image Booger+Bear:

    If I saw a person and their child of any age walking in a restaurant I probably wouldn't give them a second glance.  I meant a child literally RUNNING through a restaurant with parent chasing them down. And maybe it's a generalization, or maybe I need to start going to different places lol, but I see it happen a lot.

    FWIW I don't know how old we were when they first started taking us out to eat, but we never got up without asking permission to leave the table whether at home or away. It was just the rule, you didn't have to be eating, but you stayed seated until you were excused. As the third child perhaps I saw my older siblings doing as such and simply never thought to get up?

    I agree that running is not something kids should do in a restaurant. And I know I'm just super sensitive right now because of two bad experiences, lol. I was thinking exactly that, that younger kids see and imitate their older siblings, which can be really useful. Unfortunately right now, it is an option of an screaming, crying baby in her high chair or her going from lap to lap and walking around a bit. She really has a mind of her own. 

    Single mom of DD (2010), TTC #2 since June 2013.
  • image Booger+Bear:


    My Mom notes when we were young we would go to dinner and all four kids would sit in our chairs and eat or color or whatever but we never did the "laps around the restaurant" that you see kids doing now. But that is also how we were expected to eat at home.  This may be flameful but IMO a lot of parents are lazy. They chose to let their kids do whatever as because it's too much work to teach them respect and appropriate behavior. And then they wonder why the kids run amok.

    I call this grandparent amnesia.  I am sure there was a time aka toddler hood when someone was impatient  and didn't know how to sit still or quietly color etc.

    There is NO WAY i am lazy because my child is one and has no idea how to behave and sit quietly for long periods of time. my son until he could walk would be SO happy to sit in the highchair our laps at restaurants. now he gets bored and impatient. do i let him scream...um no but we are happy to walk him around look at pictures etc. 


  • If we are at a restaurant LO either sits on my lap or the highchair/booster. If she wants to walk around, she holds one of our hands. If it's crowded we go outside for a few minutes. she's 19 months and I think its a bit much to ask her to sit for a long period while the food is coming and while everyone is eating. If she starts to pitch a fit we take her outside until she calms down. 

    One thing that bothers me is children interrupting adults mid sentence. But it's also hard right now because LO is just beginning to communicate. So what is the balance between listening and encouraging LO to talk, but teaching her to wait if I am talking to someone or on the phone? At this age?

    I am also having a hard time with this balance when she is using and/or learning commands. So she will run up to me and take my hand and say "go." I want to encourage this type of communication because she's just learning these things. Am I "spoiling" her by getting up and going where she wants me too? I have been "going" but also peppering it with a few "not right now, honey" responses. 

    I can see how well-meaning parents get caught in "spoiling" their kids.

    On another note - I do agree that kids thrive within boundaries, and parents need to "parent" instead of "friend" their kids. I also think kids thrive when they are made to feel important because of tangible things that they earn - like trust. What I am having a hard time figuring out is - what age is appropriate to start these things? Bringing up the Play at Home Mom blog - I would love for my kid to have a bunch of stuff around they have access too and plan to start implementing that when I get back home. (traveling right now) But part of me thinks it's going to be one big mess for a long time. 

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  • image lachute:
    image Booger+Bear:


    My Mom notes when we were young we would go to dinner and all four kids would sit in our chairs and eat or color or whatever but we never did the "laps around the restaurant" that you see kids doing now. But that is also how we were expected to eat at home.  This may be flameful but IMO a lot of parents are lazy. They chose to let their kids do whatever as because it's too much work to teach them respect and appropriate behavior. And then they wonder why the kids run amok.

    I call this grandparent amnesia.  I am sure there was a time aka toddler hood when someone was impatient  and didn't know how to sit still or quietly color etc.

    There is NO WAY i am lazy because my child is one and has no idea how to behave and sit quietly for long periods of time. my son until he could walk would be SO happy to sit in the highchair our laps at restaurants. now he gets bored and impatient. do i let him scream...um no but we are happy to walk him around look at pictures etc. 


    Yes. And I hate even saying this, but Booger Bear's baby probably isn't even mobile much less ready to take off out of a parent's hand-hold. Some toddlers have more trouble sitting still and different parents have different ways of handling that. One may avoid restaurants, one may allow LO to sit on knees in the booth instead of sitting on their bottom in a high chair, go for walks, etc. I had a hard time with the notion in the article that French kids never act out when expected to sit quietly in a restaurant for long periods of time. And if that IS a blanket cultural expectation, I feel sorry for the  kids who are more energetic or special needs and their parents).

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  • There were some things in this piece that I agreed with - the importance of independent play, for example.

    However, I spent my high school junior year in France, and while French children may be "well-behaved", I'm not sure how that translates to adulthood.  Most of the teens I knew there didn't just *think* their parents didn't care if they were drunk and passed out at a party... they knew it was the truth.  Yes, we were very independent.  We were expected to be more responsible.  We didn't call for help, because chances are, the parents just didn't come. They had better things to do.

    I'm not saying that American teens are better, but certainly the ones I know were more innocent, more open, less cynical, and kinder.  

    I am less interested in showing off a well-behaved child than I am in raising a compassionate, courageous man.  I don't want my adult son to blindly follow direction "because I told you so".  I don't want him to take no for an answer (well, reasonably, hence the compassion).  I do want him to ask for help when he needs it, and expect a kind response. 

     If that means I have to eat at Friendly's for a while, so be it. 

    image
  • image erinkate23:

    There were some things in this piece that I agreed with - the importance of independent play, for example.

    However, I spent my high school junior year in France, and while French children may be "well-behaved", I'm not sure how that translates to adulthood.  Most of the teens I knew there didn't just *think* their parents didn't care if they were drunk and passed out at a party... they knew it was the truth.  Yes, we were very independent.  We were expected to be more responsible.  We didn't call for help, because chances are, the parents just didn't come. They had better things to do.

    I'm not saying that American teens are better, but certainly the ones I know were more innocent, more open, less cynical, and kinder.  

    I am less interested in showing off a well-behaved child than I am in raising a compassionate, courageous man.  I don't want my adult son to blindly follow direction "because I told you so".  I don't want him to take no for an answer (well, reasonably, hence the compassion).  I do want him to ask for help when he needs it, and expect a kind response. 

     If that means I have to eat at Friendly's for a while, so be it. 

    Perfectly said. It is my parenting goal NOT to raise a highly obedient adult (kind, yes, empathetic, definitely, considerate, yup, sure hope so, but also courageous and confident, which are both at odds with being obedient for the sake of being obedient). 

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  • image fredalina:
    image erinkate23:

    There were some things in this piece that I agreed with - the importance of independent play, for example.

    However, I spent my high school junior year in France, and while French children may be "well-behaved", I'm not sure how that translates to adulthood.  Most of the teens I knew there didn't just *think* their parents didn't care if they were drunk and passed out at a party... they knew it was the truth.  Yes, we were very independent.  We were expected to be more responsible.  We didn't call for help, because chances are, the parents just didn't come. They had better things to do.

    I'm not saying that American teens are better, but certainly the ones I know were more innocent, more open, less cynical, and kinder.  

    I am less interested in showing off a well-behaved child than I am in raising a compassionate, courageous man.  I don't want my adult son to blindly follow direction "because I told you so".  I don't want him to take no for an answer (well, reasonably, hence the compassion).  I do want him to ask for help when he needs it, and expect a kind response. 

     If that means I have to eat at Friendly's for a while, so be it. 

    Perfectly said. It is my parenting goal NOT to raise a highly obedient adult (kind, yes, empathetic, definitely, considerate, yup, sure hope so, but also courageous and confident, which are both at odds with being obedient for the sake of being obedient). 

    Good points! 

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  • The balance between too much and not enough discipline is a constant struggle for DH and I. 

    Anecdotally DH and his brother were raised with so much discipline that DH's brother is +40, lives at home, and is completely unable to manage his own life. (Of course there are other issues at play and the irony is that my IL's style of discipline never evolved past rearing 8year olds and now they completely enable his lifestyle). BUT he was "so well behaved" and they kept their kids on a "tight leash". On the other side of the coin my half brother was raised with so little discipline, he was a "spoiled brat", that at 23 he is only a few rungs up the ladder in terms of being a real adult than my BIL. Luckily my brother has a much more disciplined long term girlfriend that has at least gotten him out of the house.

    I know these are extreme points of reference but it is interesting how 2 extreme  discipline styles have resulted in what DH and I refer to as the 50% success rate. Each set of parents has 1 functioning and 1 non functioning adult child. It makes you wonder how much any of it matters. I guess we will find out in 25-30 years or so if our middle of the road approach produces two functional members of society or not.

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  • image erinkate23:

    There were some things in this piece that I agreed with - the importance of independent play, for example.

    However, I spent my high school junior year in France, and while French children may be "well-behaved", I'm not sure how that translates to adulthood.  Most of the teens I knew there didn't just *think* their parents didn't care if they were drunk and passed out at a party... they knew it was the truth.  Yes, we were very independent.  We were expected to be more responsible.  We didn't call for help, because chances are, the parents just didn't come. They had better things to do.

    I'm not saying that American teens are better, but certainly the ones I know were more innocent, more open, less cynical, and kinder.  

    I am less interested in showing off a well-behaved child than I am in raising a compassionate, courageous man.  I don't want my adult son to blindly follow direction "because I told you so".  I don't want him to take no for an answer (well, reasonably, hence the compassion).  I do want him to ask for help when he needs it, and expect a kind response. 

     If that means I have to eat at Friendly's for a while, so be it. 

    this is outrageous in its assumption about the kindness of American teens. Are you kidding me? 
    image Josephine is 4.
  • image fredalina:
    image lachute:
    image Booger+Bear:


    My Mom notes when we were young we would go to dinner and all four kids would sit in our chairs and eat or color or whatever but we never did the "laps around the restaurant" that you see kids doing now. But that is also how we were expected to eat at home.  This may be flameful but IMO a lot of parents are lazy. They chose to let their kids do whatever as because it's too much work to teach them respect and appropriate behavior. And then they wonder why the kids run amok.

    I call this grandparent amnesia.  I am sure there was a time aka toddler hood when someone was impatient  and didn't know how to sit still or quietly color etc.

    There is NO WAY i am lazy because my child is one and has no idea how to behave and sit quietly for long periods of time. my son until he could walk would be SO happy to sit in the highchair our laps at restaurants. now he gets bored and impatient. do i let him scream...um no but we are happy to walk him around look at pictures etc. 


    Yes. And I hate even saying this, but Booger Bear's baby probably isn't even mobile much less ready to take off out of a parent's hand-hold. Some toddlers have more trouble sitting still and different parents have different ways of handling that. One may avoid restaurants, one may allow LO to sit on knees in the booth instead of sitting on their bottom in a high chair, go for walks, etc. I had a hard time with the notion in the article that French kids never act out when expected to sit quietly in a restaurant for long periods of time. And if that IS a blanket cultural expectation, I feel sorry for the  kids who are more energetic or special needs and their parents).

    I realize my kid is still young that I may have a wildchild battling me at every turn. But I will expect him to behave certain ways, including sitting at the table not running amok. And like I said, if LO is getting bored and you take him for a walk to look around that is totally different than him running through the place like a maniac.  But ITA that I find it hard to believe French kids NEVER act out.

    While it's different than my own child, I have 5 nieces/nephews. I've taken my oldest niece out to dinner from when she was about 2 and she sat at the table just fine. We've gone out as a family with the kids at varying ages from birth to now (and the oldest is 10). I've never seen any of them get up from the table without permission.  They are loud and rambunctious, there's certainly no quietly sitting there while the adults converse, but they stay in their seats. 

    And I don't mean to imply that any child who gets up during dinner has a lazy parent. Because those two things aren't necessarily related. But in general, I do think there are a LOT of lazy parents. I see it first hand in friends and family members who never follow through with consequences and subsequently their children do not listen.



    imageimageimage"Lilypie">image"Lilypie">
  • image erinkate23:

    I am less interested in showing off a well-behaved child than I am in raising a compassionate, courageous man.  I don't want my adult son to blindly follow direction "because I told you so".  I don't want him to take no for an answer (well, reasonably, hence the compassion).  I do want him to ask for help when he needs it, and expect a kind response. 

    oh come on...I don't know if you meant it this way, but really? well-behaved children aren't necessarily going to become adults who "blindly" follow direction.

    I am not interested in "showing-off" my well-behaved child. I'm interested in fostering an environment where we can have more meaningful/productive time together. If he knows (because he's been taught) his boundaries and my (reasonable) expectations, then life goes much more smoothly for everyone.

     


  • image lanie30:
    image erinkate23:


    I'm not saying that American teens are better, but certainly the ones I know were more innocent, more open, less cynical, and kinder.  


    this is outrageous in its assumption about the kindness of American teens. Are you kidding me? 

    lol, yes. I think there are plenty of cases in the news on a regular basis that confirm that plenty of American teens are total @ssholes

  • Hoover, I really wasn't trying to be hurtful. It's just that you'll someday take your son for a walk around a restaurant (or mall, or busy city street) holding your hand, and he'll break away and run, and you'll be the one chasing him looking like the Shiite parent. Happens to all of us at some time or another, some of us more than others lol.

    IDK, one of the things that rubbed me the wrong way about the article, which I guess is kind of the whole premise lol, is the notion that Americans view the inability to sit still for long periods in restaurants as temperament but she obviously disagrees. It's defknitely at least both. I know plenty of parents who had a tough time with one kid being a more active kiddo than another, acting out in public, etc.

    Hysterectomy after Stage IV Endometriosis
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  • Lol autocorrect. Hoover = Booger

    Hysterectomy after Stage IV Endometriosis
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