I have seen that and it IS very emotional - I am sure I at least choked up reading it - but it cemented my views. I have to admit that I would be heartbroken and honestly a bit disgusted if my baby was placed into my arms and I realized it had Down Synd. I am sure many of you will find that heartless but it is my gut reaction.
This comment officially confirms, IMO, you are not mature enough to be a parent.
What is your mentally *perfect* child wants to be a greeter? Will you throw then to the wolves b/c they aren't living up to everything you dreamed they would be.
I am just to disgusted with you right now it is probably best that I leave this thread for good.
This
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
I'm sorry, but I can't help but judge you right now. I'm appalled that you would love and fight for a physically disabled child but not a mentally disabled child. I can't even find the words to express my disgust.
I have so much I could say to you right now, but it would surely get me banned.
These are my honest opinions so if that makes me a bad person, so be it. I want my child and my family to have a good life. So few bad things in life are actually preventable, so yes, I'd take advantage of this being one tragic but preventable situation. I am not saying it would be easy for me.
According to Wiki: "A 2002 literature review of elective abortion
rates found that 91?93% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe
with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated."
I have seen that and it IS very emotional - I am sure I at least choked up reading it - but it cemented my views. I have to admit that I would be heartbroken and honestly a bit disgusted if my baby was placed into my arms and I realized it had Down Synd. I am sure many of you will find that heartless but it is my gut reaction.
I appreciate your honestly - most people would not say this. But, in thinking this through it is important to remember that the majority of issues are not readily identifiable prior to birth and early devleopment. Autism and mental retardation are examples of this (some children are intellectually disabled for no identifiable reason). Mental illness can also be quite disabling and impossible to predict. There are a host of others. Just putting it out there. I guess I've seen a lot and I can say with complete confidence that there is no crystal ball with children and parenting.
I'm in the camp of "never say never" and try very hard not to judge parents who are making a terribly emotional and difficult decision... not only for their unborn and themselves but for any other children they have that will inevitably be impacted.
Sisterly love--Sophia (1/14/07) and Baby Margaux (7/13/10)
Doctor in training!
I have seen that and it IS very emotional - I am sure I at least choked up reading it - but it cemented my views. I have to admit that I would be heartbroken and honestly a bit disgusted if my baby was placed into my arms and I realized it had Down Synd. I am sure many of you will find that heartless but it is my gut reaction.
This comment officially confirms, IMO, you are not mature enough to be a parent.
What is your mentally *perfect* child wants to be a greeter? Will you throw then to the wolves b/c they aren't living up to everything you dreamed they would be.
I am just to disgusted with you right now it is probably best that I leave this thread for good.
Amen. It's one thing to be heartbroken and upset to realize your child will have a lifelong disabiltiy (in fact there is a wonderful blog out there with the story of a mother who found out her child had DS at birth) but to say you will be disgusted and to imply that you will not LOVE or FIGHT for your child with a mental disabiltiy makes you poor excuse for a human being. You should be ashamed of yourself and I pray that you get your "perfect" child so they will not have to deal with your judgemental attitude.
AMEN.
I highly recommend you go volunteer for your local Special Olympics, as I truly hope your eyes are opened to how wonderful our special needs children are, and that they are not a "burden" as you, the OP, put it, but a blessing and a gift!
I am hugely pro-choice. I work in women's health and volunteer with the Planned Parenthood Action Committee. Since this thread seems skewed towards the pro-life, I thought I'd offer my perspective.
While I am pro-choice, I have no idea what I would personally do until I was faced with the decision. And that's not because I waffle or straddle the fence, but because it's truly a difficult and complex issue. For me it would depend on certainty of diagnosis, prognosis, etc. My political stance is pro-choice because I believe every woman has the right to make the choice--not because I think it's necessarily the right or best choice in every circumstance.
To be honest, I cringe when I see people weigh in on things like this that haven't been through it. I had a friend who did terminate when faced with a very grim scenario--her child would have had massive defects and would have been terminally ill from birth and suffered greatly. While I try to understand that SOME women would still not choose to terminate, many women who say they would never do so absolutely would in that case like that. IMO, never say never until it's your body, your child, and your decision. And to pretend you have that perspective and can actually put yourself in that woman's shoes is disrespectful of how absolutely terrible that situation is.
I know for a fact that my husband and I would never terminate a pregnancy. We would give birth to our child and enjoy what time (or mourn that we didn't get time) with our baby alive.
I believe in a God of miracles and I could never make any decision to go against my belief in His almighty healing powers. As long as a child's heart is still beating in my womb, I will, without a doubt, do anything and everything in my power to love, nurture, and grow that child in hopes that my baby would be a miracle baby. That will never change.
I'm sorry, but I can't help but judge you right now. I'm appalled that you would love and fight for a physically disabled child but not a mentally disabled child. I can't even find the words to express my disgust.
I have so much I could say to you right now, but it would surely get me banned.
These are my honest opinions so if that makes me a bad person, so be it. I want my child and my family to have a good life. So few bad things in life are actually preventable, so yes, I'd take advantage of this being one tragic but preventable situation. I am not saying it would be easy for me.
According to Wiki: "A 2002 literature review of elective abortion rates found that 91?93% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated."
Clearly I am not at all alone in my thinking.
What scares me about you is that you only think about Down's syndrome--What is your child has cerbral palsy and has mental retardation with it or Autism all those things come at or after birth.
I am hugely pro-choice. I work in women's health and volunteer with the Planned Parenthood Action Committee. Since this thread seems skewed towards the pro-life, I thought I'd offer my perspective.
While I am pro-choice, I have no idea what I would personally do until I was faced with the decision. And that's not because I waffle or straddle the fence, but because it's truly a difficult and complex issue. For me it would depend on certainty of diagnosis, prognosis, etc. My political stance is pro-choice because I believe every woman has the right to make the choice--not because I think it's necessarily the right or best choice in every circumstance.
To be honest, I cringe when I see people weigh in on things like this that haven't been through it. I had a friend who did terminate when faced with a very grim scenario--her child would have had massive defects and would have been terminally ill from birth and suffered greatly. While I try to understand that SOME women would still not choose to terminate, many women who say they would never do so absolutely would in that case like that. IMO, never say never until it's your body, your child, and your decision. And to pretend you have that perspective and can actually put yourself in that woman's shoes is disrespectful of how absolutely terrible that situation is.
I agree. I think that until you are faced with that sort of decision, you really can't understand what it would be like to make that decision.
I'm sorry, but I can't help but judge you right now. I'm appalled that you would love and fight for a physically disabled child but not a mentally disabled child. I can't even find the words to express my disgust.
I have so much I could say to you right now, but it would surely get me banned.
These are my honest opinions so if that makes me a bad person, so be it. I want my child and my family to have a good life. So few bad things in life are actually preventable, so yes, I'd take advantage of this being one tragic but preventable situation. I am not saying it would be easy for me.
According to Wiki: "A 2002 literature review of elective abortion rates found that 91?93% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated."
Clearly I am not at all alone in my thinking.
Your maturity levels were just confirmed again by the fact that Wiki is resource you are willing to trust when it comes to situations like this.
I'll be an outsider with you. Sure, some people with Downs can live great lives, but many, many don't. Many are NOT the high functioning people you see working at your grocery store.
Before becoming pregnant I tested + for the CF gene. Had my DH also tested postitive we would have first talked about adoption options, but had we proceeded to conceive on our own, and our baby was + for CF, we probably would have aborted.
Wow, really? This day and age, there is so much amazing technology out there that many CF people *can* live full and healthy lives. Yes, there is that chance that your child may not make it to their teens, but... I couldn't imagine passing that up. I know two sisters with CF, and one just passed away.. at the age of 27 years old and the other is 31 and going strong... both girls are/were the sweetest, most intelligent, fully functioning women, with actually the most amazing singing voices you'd ever heard... and considering the lung issues, it's even more amazing that they used those voices to their full potential.
Even the Mayo Clinic says "In the past, most people with cystic fibrosis died in their teens. Improved screening and treatments now allow many people with cystic fibrosis to live into their 50s or even longer." https://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cystic-fibrosis/DS00287
Right, but the norm don't live past their 30's. I don't want that for my child.
And as for the pp-no I don't have stats, but don't misquote me and say I said MOST aren't high functioning-I said many. HUGE difference.
OP was right to call the pro-lifers in this thread high horse riders, look at all the judgement going on. DO NOT try to crucify those of us who may or may not make different decisions about our bodies and our children. You have NO idea unless you are actually in the predicament.
I'm sorry, but I can't help but judge you right now. I'm appalled that you would love and fight for a physically disabled child but not a mentally disabled child. I can't even find the words to express my disgust.
I have so much I could say to you right now, but it would surely get me banned.
These are my honest opinions so if that makes me a bad person, so be it. I want my child and my family to have a good life. So few bad things in life are actually preventable, so yes, I'd take advantage of this being one tragic but preventable situation. I am not saying it would be easy for me.
According to Wiki: "A 2002 literature review of elective abortion rates found that 91?93% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated."
Clearly I am not at all alone in my thinking.
First, that "information" is 8 years old. Second, if you are basing your opinions and decisions on Wiki, well, I guess that shows a lot more about you. And yes, it does make you a bad person to say you wouldn't love a child with a mental disability.
i'm not some crazy pro-lifer, but honestly, if you're that heartless then the baby would be better off with a family who could care and love it like it deserves to be loved.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
I am hugely pro-choice. I work in women's health and volunteer with the Planned Parenthood Action Committee. Since this thread seems skewed towards the pro-life, I thought I'd offer my perspective.
While I am pro-choice, I have no idea what I would personally do until I was faced with the decision. And that's not because I waffle or straddle the fence, but because it's truly a difficult and complex issue. For me it would depend on certainty of diagnosis, prognosis, etc. My political stance is pro-choice because I believe every woman has the right to make the choice--not because I think it's necessarily the right or best choice in every circumstance.
To be honest, I cringe when I see people weigh in on things like this that haven't been through it. I had a friend who did terminate when faced with a very grim scenario--her child would have had massive defects and would have been terminally ill from birth and suffered greatly. While I try to understand that SOME women would still not choose to terminate, many women who say they would never do so absolutely would in that case like that. IMO, never say never until it's your body, your child, and your decision. And to pretend you have that perspective and can actually put yourself in that woman's shoes is disrespectful of how absolutely terrible that situation is.
I know for a fact that my husband and I would never terminate a pregnancy. We would give birth to our child and enjoy what time (or mourn that we didn't get time) with our baby alive.
I believe in a God of miracles and I could never make any decision to go against my belief in His almighty healing powers. As long as a child's heart is still beating in my womb, I will, without a doubt, do anything and everything in my power to love, nurture, and grow that child in hopes that my baby would be a miracle baby. That will never change.
Like I said, I know SOME women/couples would not choose to terminate regardless of circumstances. That doesn't make it any less true that no person on this earth should sit in judgment of someone who would. My problem is not with the choice (obviously--it's the crux of my argument) my issue is with judgment.
I want a healthy happy child. I've met several fun loving, healthy happy adults with down syndrome who are working, socially independent and capable of making incredible changes in their community.
While I hope that any child of mine does not have to face burdens that come with disabilities, I know that as a disability rights advocate, they'd find a decent parent in me. We'd have a hard road ahead. But you know what? Even if your child does not have DS, they may have any # of developmental disabilities/intellectual disabilities that you cannot detect while pregnant. Some may develop, some may be there and more hidden until school age. You need to prepare yourself. Every child has unique challenges. A child with down syndrome is presented with this from the get go.
90%? That scares me. As I said I've met some incredible people with DS and a world where they are not welcome, frightens me.
Even if your child does not have DS, they may have any # of developmental disabilities/intellectual disabilities that you cannot detect while pregnant. Some may develop, some may be there and more hidden until school age. You need to prepare yourself. Every child has unique challenges. A child with down syndrome is presented with this from the get go.
yup. what are you going to do if your child is just dumb as dirt and you don't find out until kindergarten? adopt out?
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
Omg.. first of all I'm against abortion so the fact that you would even think to abort your child because he/she is not *perfectly healthy* like you seems very selfish. If you can't handle a child with disabilities or major illnesses at least put him/her up for adoption- children with disabilities are still human beings.. The child didn't decide to come into this world OR have disabilities, but killing him/her because of the challenges shouldn't be the way to go. Don't get me wrong, there are some instances where they have to abort because the child is already dying or other reasons where they would just suffer and wouldn't survive long, but aborting because your child has Down syndrome? There are a lot of people in this world with Downs who are brilliant, successful, and just wonderful people. I'm already in the mindset that I'm gonna love my child no matter what, but if I didn't want to have my child because they had a disability I would at least give them up for adoption so they had a chance at life. Idk.. sorry, this is my 2 cents.
I am absolutely and completely horrified by your attitude regarding the mentally disabled. Please, please don't pass that attitude onto the innocent mind of your child. The world doesn't need any more bigots.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
Like I said, I know SOME women/couples would not choose to terminate regardless of circumstances. That doesn't make it any less true that no person on this earth should sit in judgment of someone who would. My problem is not with the choice (obviously--it's the crux of my argument) my issue is with judgment.
I agree with the judgment not being right in most cases. But, have you read the shiit that OP is posting? That she would terminate a DS child b/c she would never want her child to be a greeter at the local Walmart? Really? And 8 year old statistics off of Wiki? That's the best she's got?
If someone makes an educated decision that is right for their family, I should never judge that decision and I will try my absolute best not to.
However, everything the OP has posted sounds childish and selfish - and that is what I am judging - her childish behavior that fails to see that a pregnancy and child is not just about her.
I wouldn't rule out any option. My sister is severely disabled, and I've seen what my parents have gone through with her. She will never be independent. She's like a 2-year old in 30-year-old's body. I will have to take care of her one day, and it's a huge issue for everyone in my family. I wouldn't choose that life for anyone. I think it's easy to say that "special needs" kids are no big deal if you haven't dealt with it it every single day. Maybe they're cute and happy when they're little, but it's a lot harder when they're grown adults. After you're gone, who will take care of them? There are a lot of issues people don't think about.
This. If your special needs child outlives you, they typically become a burden either on another family member or the system. That isn't fair to anyone.
My thoughts on abortion have probably shifted since becoming pregnant but I would still rather no child than a severely mentally disabled child. What does a mentally disabled person contribute to the world? Honestly, they might brighten their family's life, but I want my baby to at least have the chance to grow up to be president or an engineer or a writer... not a greeter.
I also find mentally disabled persons extremely uncomfortable to be around for non family members. A "man" with Down Syndrome insisted on hugging me once while I was shopping. My high school had a large program for disabled kids and there were kids that barked, that drooled, that were overly touchy and had no sense of boundaries. Ego is an important part in human development from an evolutionary standpoint and without that filter it is all but impossible to function in society.
I didn't mean that I didn't want everyone's opinion, but more pointing
out that I was looking for people who share my views and concerns versus
trying to start an argument.
As for asking what I have against "sick" children, I would not just love but FIGHT for my child if they were mentally normal but physically ill.
WTF is wrong with you?? This is one of the most ignorant and disgusting things I have ever read on these boards and I have been around a loooong time. You have clearly never spent ANY time with special needs children or people because your attitude is ignorant and disturbing at best. Will you surrender your child at age 2 if s/he is diagnosed with autism?
I suggest you seek a higher level of compassion before becoming a parent.
I don't doubt that you are alone in your thinking.
It's just that there are some of us who think that is a sad way of thinking. And I'm very pro choice. But I am also an advocate for people living with disabilities and think that terminating a pregnancy because a man in the mall hugged you once and made you uncomfortable is bizarre. I also think that you need to take your head out of your ass because a lot of intellectual disabilities do not show up on prenatal tests and you need to be strong enough to be an advocate for a child who may, yes, have an intellectual disability you couldn't terminate.
The reason I bring it up is because I'm coming up on at least some testing. While I'm not over 35 and likely won't have most optional testing performed, it is one of those things we wanted to have a decision on before the fact. Much like knowing what you want to do before taking a pregnancy test (assuming you aren't trying to get pregnant). I find it helpful to have an informed decision before emotions are involved. Not to say my mind might not change in the moment, but knowing what my beliefs are isolated from my situation helps me make difficult choices. Obviously I don't know what will happen or how I will feel, but I'm free to talk and speculate the same as we do on these boards about what birth will be like or what we'd do in the case of twins or pushy mother-in-laws.
As for disabilities other than Down Syndrome that could slip through testing, it would depend on the disability. My DH and I have discussed the possibility of adoption for a special needs child but who knows how we'd feel in the moment. As for Autism in particular, the best case scenario for Autism is much better than the best case for Down. Autistic children struggle socially (in varying degrees) but as far as I know they can be very, very smart. It's obviously a different situation with things that can't be detected or don't show up immediately at birth.
My high school had specific programs for mentally challenged students. Many of my classes had at least one severely mentally handicapped person, sometimes with an aide helping them. I witnessed outbursts, inappropriate touching (in swim class one boy was constantly touching himself under his shorts in front of everyone in the pool), and tons of boundary issues. I'm not sure what the Special Olympics would do to change my mind. Yes, some mentally handicapped kids can be more highly functioning but why take the chance if you don't have to? The fact that they don't even realize they're being inappropriate hammers home my point on why they can never really function in society.
Thank you to those of you who understand where I'm coming from and aren't calling me disgusting for what I'm sure tons of people privately think.
I wouldn't rule out any option. My sister is severely disabled, and I've seen what my parents have gone through with her. She will never be independent. She's like a 2-year old in 30-year-old's body. I will have to take care of her one day, and it's a huge issue for everyone in my family. I wouldn't choose that life for anyone. I think it's easy to say that "special needs" kids are no big deal if you haven't dealt with it it every single day. Maybe they're cute and happy when they're little, but it's a lot harder when they're grown adults. After you're gone, who will take care of them? There are a lot of issues people don't think about.
This. My sister & I were both removed from our bio mom's care due to abuse & neglect when I was 1 1/2. She has a severe mental dissability. We stayed side by side until I was adopted at age 7. She was not and as an adult she now lives in a group home. She is 27 but her mind is at the age of a 3 or 4 year old. Somewhat growing up with her & seeing how she will have to spend the rest of her life always kept things in perspective for me. Dh & I talked about it & we agreed we would abort if we knew about it ahead of time. Of course if our baby developed something after they were born then we would deal with it as parents but we would not choose to bring someone into this world who can not live a full life.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
As for asking what I have against "sick" children, I would not just love but FIGHT for my child if they were mentally normal but physically ill.
This is what I judge. No prenatal screening will eliminate the chance of your child being born or acquiring some level of intellectual disability. You need to get your boxing gloves ready because your child, regardless of their abilities, are going to need you as an advocate.
I hear there are people in the mall who don't think he/she should exist because they make them uncomfortable.
The reason I bring it up is because I'm coming up on at least some testing. While I'm not over 35 and likely won't have most optional testing performed, it is one of those things we wanted to have a decision on before the fact. Much like knowing what you want to do before taking a pregnancy test (assuming you aren't trying to get pregnant). I find it helpful to have an informed decision before emotions are involved. Not to say my mind might not change in the moment, but knowing what my beliefs are isolated from my situation helps me make difficult choices. Obviously I don't know what will happen or how I will feel, but I'm free to talk and speculate the same as we do on these boards about what birth will be like or what we'd do in the case of twins or pushy mother-in-laws.
As for disabilities other than Down Syndrome that could slip through testing, it would depend on the disability. My DH and I have discussed the possibility of adoption for a special needs child but who knows how we'd feel in the moment. As for Autism in particular, the best case scenario for Autism is much better than the best case for Down. Autistic children struggle socially (in varying degrees) but as far as I know they can be very, very smart. It's obviously a different situation with things that can't be detected or don't show up immediately at birth.
My high school had specific programs for mentally challenged students. Many of my classes had at least one severely mentally handicapped person, sometimes with an aide helping them. I witnessed outbursts, inappropriate touching (in swim class one boy was constantly touching himself under his shorts in front of everyone in the pool), and tons of boundary issues. I'm not sure what the Special Olympics would do to change my mind. Yes, some mentally handicapped kids can be more highly functioning but why take the chance if you don't have to? The fact that they don't even realize they're being inappropriate hammers home my point on why they can never really function in society.
Thank you to those of you who understand where I'm coming from and aren't calling me disgusting for what I'm sure tons of people privately think.
Not picking up on social cues doesn't mean a person isn't of value. Essentially, they make you uncomfortable, and rather than be an adult and face your discomfort, you'd rather just have them all disappear.
Nice.
Oh, and being mentally disabled is the result of a PHYSICAL defect. Whether it be in one's DNA or a physical issue with the brain.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
Omg.. first of all I'm against abortion so the fact that you would even think to abort your child because he/she is not *perfectly healthy* like you seems very selfish. If you can't handle a child with disabilities or major illnesses at least put him/her up for adoption- children with disabilities are still human beings.. The child didn't decide to come into this world OR have disabilities, but killing him/her because of the challenges shouldn't be the way to go. Don't get me wrong, there are some instances where they have to abort because the child is already dying or other reasons where they would just suffer and wouldn't survive long, but aborting because your child has Down syndrome? There are a lot of people in this world with Downs who are brilliant, successful, and just wonderful people. I'm already in the mindset that I'm gonna love my child no matter what, but if I didn't want to have my child because they had a disability I would at least give them up for adoption so they had a chance at life. Idk.. sorry, this is my 2 cents.
Because people are lining up to adopt kids with special needs.
Autistic children struggle socially (in varying degrees) but as far as I know they can be very, very smart. It's obviously a different situation with things that can't be detected or don't show up immediately at birth.
I think you may need some education. And just FYI, there aren't lines of people ready to adopt special needs children.
If you are that ready to drop and run at the first sign of a difficulty, this parenting thing isn't for you. I mean that in the most sensitive way possible. You are going to have a rough rough time.
I witnessed outbursts, inappropriate touching (in swim class one boy was constantly touching himself under his shorts in front of everyone in the pool), and tons of boundary issues. I'm not sure what the Special Olympics would do to change my mind. Yes, some mentally handicapped kids can be more highly functioning but why take the chance if you don't have to? The fact that they don't even realize they're being inappropriate hammers home my point on why they can never really function in society.
dude, i don't know what world you live in, but i see "developmentally normal" people doing inappropriate things all. the. time. there are plenty of kids/adults who don't know personal space boundaries and that has nothing to do with mental disability. we hear about perverts all the time - molesting kids and raping women - they usually aren't mentally handicaped (psychologically fvcked up, yes, but mentally disabled, no).
you're a fool if you think those are the only things that create "burdens" on family.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
I'll be an outsider with you. Sure, some people with Downs can live great lives, but many, many don't. Many are NOT the high functioning people you see working at your grocery store.
Before becoming pregnant I tested + for the CF gene. Had my DH also tested postitive we would have first talked about adoption options, but had we proceeded to conceive on our own, and our baby was + for CF, we probably would have aborted.
I had the same thing happen with testing + for CF but i found out after having suffered a miscarriage. luckily DH didn't test positive, but it made me think about things. i had come to the conclusion if he had, then we might not want to have children, because most CF kids don't live past 30 and they spend their whole life suffering. but that was just me. i personally couldn't abort for my own reasons, especially after going through a loss.
I'll be an outsider with you. Sure, some people with Downs can live great lives, but many, many don't. Many are NOT the high functioning people you see working at your grocery store.
Before becoming pregnant I tested + for the CF gene. Had my DH also tested postitive we would have first talked about adoption options, but had we proceeded to conceive on our own, and our baby was + for CF, we probably would have aborted.
I had the same thing happen with testing + for CF but i found out after having suffered a miscarriage. luckily DH didn't test positive, but it made me think about things. i had come to the conclusion if he had, then we might not want to have children, because most CF kids don't live past 30 and they spend their whole life suffering. but that was just me. i personally couldn't abort for my own reasons, especially after going through a loss.
I dont' judge anyone for terminating a pregnancy for any reason. I don't need their reason. I really don't.
I do judge a person who says they wouldn't be an advocate for their child if they had an intellectual disability or because "people like that make others very uncomfortable.". what you do with your ute is no business of mine but there are things you cannot test for inutero and you need to prepare yourself that your life is not going to be perfect, and neither is your child.
I wouldn't rule out any option. My sister is severely disabled, and I've seen what my parents have gone through with her. She will never be independent. She's like a 2-year old in 30-year-old's body. I will have to take care of her one day, and it's a huge issue for everyone in my family. I wouldn't choose that life for anyone. I think it's easy to say that "special needs" kids are no big deal if you haven't dealt with it it every single day. Maybe they're cute and happy when they're little, but it's a lot harder when they're grown adults. After you're gone, who will take care of them? There are a lot of issues people don't think about.
I have to agree with this. If I knew the child I was carrying had a profound disability I'd have to think long and hard on my choices. I, too, have a sister who is disabled. There's a difference between ideals ("People with disabilities can live long, full, and happy lives!"), and the reality.
I'll be an outsider with you. Sure, some people with Downs can live great lives, but many, many don't. Many are NOT the high functioning people you see working at your grocery store.
Before becoming pregnant I tested + for the CF gene. Had my DH also tested postitive we would have first talked about adoption options, but had we proceeded to conceive on our own, and our baby was + for CF, we probably would have aborted.
I had the same thing happen with testing + for CF but i found out after having suffered a miscarriage. luckily DH didn't test positive, but it made me think about things. i had come to the conclusion if he had, then we might not want to have children, because most CF kids don't live past 30 and they spend their whole life suffering. but that was just me. i personally couldn't abort for my own reasons, especially after going through a loss.
I dont' judge anyone for terminating a pregnancy for any reason. I don't need their reason. I really don't.
I do judge a person who says they wouldn't be an advocate for their child if they had an intellectual disability or because "people like that make others very uncomfortable.". what you do with your ute is no business of mine but there are things you cannot test for inutero and you need to prepare yourself that your life is not going to be perfect, and neither is your child.
As always, Lanie took the words out of my mouth.
I am very curious what that poster will do if their child has a neurological disorder, or even a birth injury.
and OP, i hope your child doesn't have any mental delays or special needs b/c you are insensitive and hateful.
what if someone talked about your child the way you're talking about special needs children (no doubt, some of us among this board have a special needs child that sort of wants to throatpunch you). i hope you're around when you're kid is 2 or 3 so we call all ask you if you'd be so willing to dump your kid at the doorstep due to YOUR own issues.
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
Good grief, people, I looked up a quick stat to back my point, I didn't base my opinion on Wikipedia. That said, I'm sure that fact isn't made up. Why do you think they offer the testing? Just as a warning? Wake up.
I am not talking about my child developing disabilities or problems later. I am talking about what is preventable. So few of the serious issues in our life are actually within our control, but this one is case where we have a choice. It's worth thinking through all sides at the very least. I can certainly understand why so many people feel the way they do, but I feel it's a case where logic should rule over emotion, similar to deciding to start a family in the first place.
Good grief, people, I looked up a quick stat to back my point, I didn't base my opinion on Wikipedia. That said, I'm sure that fact isn't made up. Why do you think they offer the testing? Just as a warning? Wake up.
I am not talking about my child developing disabilities or problems later. I am talking about what is preventable. So few of the serious issues in our life are actually within our control, but this one is case where we have a choice. It's worth thinking through all sides at the very least. I can certainly understand why so many people feel the way they do, but I feel it's a case where logic should rule over emotion, similar to deciding to start a family in the first place.
Nah, I think we all understand that you meant "would you abort if you could prevent a lifetime of trouble for your child" and many of us would. You took it down the path of "ewww people with disabilities creep me out and make others uncomfortable" and that makes me give you the side eye.
Logically you are clearly not the parent for a child with any sort of developmental challenge. That's clear. you've said you wouldn't be their advocate, so I think your case abortion is necessary. I certainly wouldn't wish you on anyone with a dx of any sort of intellectual/LD issue.
however, you do realize you sound asinine and ignorant in your rantings right? Its not about "90% of people are like me." Because I think we all want healthy children with a good shot at a strong happy life. But I don't believe 90% of the population aborts children with DS (you'll have to give me the study) and I don't believe that 90% of the population is creeped out by people with disabilities. I can't believe that and do what I do for a living.
As for Autism in particular, the best case scenario for Autism is much better than the best case for Down. Autistic children struggle socially (in varying degrees) but as far as I know they can be very, very smart. It's obviously a different situation with things that can't be detected or don't show up immediately at birth.
You may want to do a bit more research on autism for a number of reasons (I think you've heard some misinformation, potentially). I know a few very bright individuals with autism who cannot function very well without significant supports. I know some intellectually disabled individuals with DS who function at a much higher level than some individuals with autism who are supposedly "high functioning" due to their level of intelligence. At the end of the day, the most important factor for level of functioning in the disability world is day to day living skills - and these do not always go hand in hand with intelligence.
I think you are correct that it is a different situation when things develop later and aren't identified. In situation 1, you have a disability, such as DS, being presented with many unknowns. When we don't know much about something, we often imagine the worst case scenario. Further, you have not bonded with the child, yet. In situation 2, you have a child you've gotten to know and love and tend to look for the positives and hope in a situation.
I'm getting where you're coming from with your question. I thought through many of these questions prior to the point I tried to get pregnant and again prior to getting my own screenings done. Personally, if I had any question re: carrying out a viable pregnancy to term, I would not have tried to conceive in the first place. I chose to be screened simply to have all the information and to seek further testing if needed. I also know that I would have been faced with a very difficult decision if there were some sort of life-threatening disorder or situation with my pregnancy/baby causing pain or suffering - that is where my line is more readily drawn, I think (but I'm still not entirely sure and wouldn't be until faced with such a situation). I'm an older person (37) who has built my career around individuals with disabilities, so - different perspective, exposure, and experiences. My reactions to this thread were based in that exposure to individuals with disabilities and their families and also to give input that life, in general, has no crystal ball.
Good grief, people, I looked up a quick stat to back my point, I didn't base my opinion on Wikipedia. That said, I'm sure that fact isn't made up. Why do you think they offer the testing? Just as a warning? Wake up.
I am not talking about my child developing disabilities or problems later. I am talking about what is preventable. So few of the serious issues in our life are actually within our control, but this one is case where we have a choice. It's worth thinking through all sides at the very least. I can certainly understand why so many people feel the way they do, but I feel it's a case where logic should rule over emotion, similar to deciding to start a family in the first place.
It's your attitude of disgust towards d/s or special needs that has people upset. Why would that attitude change if the disability showed up after birth?
Warning
No formatter is installed for the format bbhtml
Re: Sensitive Subject - Not keeping baby with (certain) disabilities?
This
These are my honest opinions so if that makes me a bad person, so be it. I want my child and my family to have a good life. So few bad things in life are actually preventable, so yes, I'd take advantage of this being one tragic but preventable situation. I am not saying it would be easy for me.
According to Wiki: "A 2002 literature review of elective abortion rates found that 91?93% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated."
Clearly I am not at all alone in my thinking.
Mama to Sebastian, born 9/2010
I appreciate your honestly - most people would not say this. But, in thinking this through it is important to remember that the majority of issues are not readily identifiable prior to birth and early devleopment. Autism and mental retardation are examples of this (some children are intellectually disabled for no identifiable reason). Mental illness can also be quite disabling and impossible to predict. There are a host of others. Just putting it out there. I guess I've seen a lot and I can say with complete confidence that there is no crystal ball with children and parenting.
AMEN.
I highly recommend you go volunteer for your local Special Olympics, as I truly hope your eyes are opened to how wonderful our special needs children are, and that they are not a "burden" as you, the OP, put it, but a blessing and a gift!
I know for a fact that my husband and I would never terminate a pregnancy. We would give birth to our child and enjoy what time (or mourn that we didn't get time) with our baby alive.
I believe in a God of miracles and I could never make any decision to go against my belief in His almighty healing powers. As long as a child's heart is still beating in my womb, I will, without a doubt, do anything and everything in my power to love, nurture, and grow that child in hopes that my baby would be a miracle baby. That will never change.
What scares me about you is that you only think about Down's syndrome--What is your child has cerbral palsy and has mental retardation with it or Autism all those things come at or after birth.
I agree. I think that until you are faced with that sort of decision, you really can't understand what it would be like to make that decision.
Your maturity levels were just confirmed again by the fact that Wiki is resource you are willing to trust when it comes to situations like this.
Right, but the norm don't live past their 30's. I don't want that for my child.
And as for the pp-no I don't have stats, but don't misquote me and say I said MOST aren't high functioning-I said many. HUGE difference.
OP was right to call the pro-lifers in this thread high horse riders, look at all the judgement going on. DO NOT try to crucify those of us who may or may not make different decisions about our bodies and our children. You have NO idea unless you are actually in the predicament.
First, that "information" is 8 years old. Second, if you are basing your opinions and decisions on Wiki, well, I guess that shows a lot more about you. And yes, it does make you a bad person to say you wouldn't love a child with a mental disability.
i'm not some crazy pro-lifer, but honestly, if you're that heartless then the baby would be better off with a family who could care and love it like it deserves to be loved.
Like I said, I know SOME women/couples would not choose to terminate regardless of circumstances. That doesn't make it any less true that no person on this earth should sit in judgment of someone who would. My problem is not with the choice (obviously--it's the crux of my argument) my issue is with judgment.
I want a healthy happy child. I've met several fun loving, healthy happy adults with down syndrome who are working, socially independent and capable of making incredible changes in their community.
While I hope that any child of mine does not have to face burdens that come with disabilities, I know that as a disability rights advocate, they'd find a decent parent in me. We'd have a hard road ahead. But you know what? Even if your child does not have DS, they may have any # of developmental disabilities/intellectual disabilities that you cannot detect while pregnant. Some may develop, some may be there and more hidden until school age. You need to prepare yourself. Every child has unique challenges. A child with down syndrome is presented with this from the get go.
90%? That scares me. As I said I've met some incredible people with DS and a world where they are not welcome, frightens me.
yup. what are you going to do if your child is just dumb as dirt and you don't find out until kindergarten? adopt out?
Mikaela is going to have a little brother!
oh and OP, how do you feel about autism? i mean, there are a lot of autistic children/adults who are high function and a lot who are not.
what would you do then?
I agree with the judgment not being right in most cases. But, have you read the shiit that OP is posting? That she would terminate a DS child b/c she would never want her child to be a greeter at the local Walmart? Really? And 8 year old statistics off of Wiki? That's the best she's got?
If someone makes an educated decision that is right for their family, I should never judge that decision and I will try my absolute best not to.
However, everything the OP has posted sounds childish and selfish - and that is what I am judging - her childish behavior that fails to see that a pregnancy and child is not just about her.
WTF is wrong with you?? This is one of the most ignorant and disgusting things I have ever read on these boards and I have been around a loooong time. You have clearly never spent ANY time with special needs children or people because your attitude is ignorant and disturbing at best. Will you surrender your child at age 2 if s/he is diagnosed with autism?
I suggest you seek a higher level of compassion before becoming a parent.
I don't doubt that you are alone in your thinking.
It's just that there are some of us who think that is a sad way of thinking. And I'm very pro choice. But I am also an advocate for people living with disabilities and think that terminating a pregnancy because a man in the mall hugged you once and made you uncomfortable is bizarre. I also think that you need to take your head out of your ass because a lot of intellectual disabilities do not show up on prenatal tests and you need to be strong enough to be an advocate for a child who may, yes, have an intellectual disability you couldn't terminate.
The reason I bring it up is because I'm coming up on at least some testing. While I'm not over 35 and likely won't have most optional testing performed, it is one of those things we wanted to have a decision on before the fact. Much like knowing what you want to do before taking a pregnancy test (assuming you aren't trying to get pregnant). I find it helpful to have an informed decision before emotions are involved. Not to say my mind might not change in the moment, but knowing what my beliefs are isolated from my situation helps me make difficult choices. Obviously I don't know what will happen or how I will feel, but I'm free to talk and speculate the same as we do on these boards about what birth will be like or what we'd do in the case of twins or pushy mother-in-laws.
As for disabilities other than Down Syndrome that could slip through testing, it would depend on the disability. My DH and I have discussed the possibility of adoption for a special needs child but who knows how we'd feel in the moment. As for Autism in particular, the best case scenario for Autism is much better than the best case for Down. Autistic children struggle socially (in varying degrees) but as far as I know they can be very, very smart. It's obviously a different situation with things that can't be detected or don't show up immediately at birth.
My high school had specific programs for mentally challenged students. Many of my classes had at least one severely mentally handicapped person, sometimes with an aide helping them. I witnessed outbursts, inappropriate touching (in swim class one boy was constantly touching himself under his shorts in front of everyone in the pool), and tons of boundary issues. I'm not sure what the Special Olympics would do to change my mind. Yes, some mentally handicapped kids can be more highly functioning but why take the chance if you don't have to? The fact that they don't even realize they're being inappropriate hammers home my point on why they can never really function in society.
Thank you to those of you who understand where I'm coming from and aren't calling me disgusting for what I'm sure tons of people privately think.
Mama to Sebastian, born 9/2010
This. My sister & I were both removed from our bio mom's care due to abuse & neglect when I was 1 1/2. She has a severe mental dissability. We stayed side by side until I was adopted at age 7. She was not and as an adult she now lives in a group home. She is 27 but her mind is at the age of a 3 or 4 year old. Somewhat growing up with her & seeing how she will have to spend the rest of her life always kept things in perspective for me. Dh & I talked about it & we agreed we would abort if we knew about it ahead of time. Of course if our baby developed something after they were born then we would deal with it as parents but we would not choose to bring someone into this world who can not live a full life.
As for asking what I have against "sick" children, I would not just love but FIGHT for my child if they were mentally normal but physically ill.
This is what I judge. No prenatal screening will eliminate the chance of your child being born or acquiring some level of intellectual disability. You need to get your boxing gloves ready because your child, regardless of their abilities, are going to need you as an advocate.
I hear there are people in the mall who don't think he/she should exist because they make them uncomfortable.
Not picking up on social cues doesn't mean a person isn't of value. Essentially, they make you uncomfortable, and rather than be an adult and face your discomfort, you'd rather just have them all disappear.
Nice.
Oh, and being mentally disabled is the result of a PHYSICAL defect. Whether it be in one's DNA or a physical issue with the brain.
Because people are lining up to adopt kids with special needs.
Autistic children struggle socially (in varying degrees) but as far as I know they can be very, very smart. It's obviously a different situation with things that can't be detected or don't show up immediately at birth.
I think you may need some education. And just FYI, there aren't lines of people ready to adopt special needs children.
If you are that ready to drop and run at the first sign of a difficulty, this parenting thing isn't for you. I mean that in the most sensitive way possible. You are going to have a rough rough time.
dude, i don't know what world you live in, but i see "developmentally normal" people doing inappropriate things all. the. time. there are plenty of kids/adults who don't know personal space boundaries and that has nothing to do with mental disability. we hear about perverts all the time - molesting kids and raping women - they usually aren't mentally handicaped (psychologically fvcked up, yes, but mentally disabled, no).
you're a fool if you think those are the only things that create "burdens" on family.
I had the same thing happen with testing + for CF but i found out after having suffered a miscarriage. luckily DH didn't test positive, but it made me think about things. i had come to the conclusion if he had, then we might not want to have children, because most CF kids don't live past 30 and they spend their whole life suffering. but that was just me. i personally couldn't abort for my own reasons, especially after going through a loss.
I dont' judge anyone for terminating a pregnancy for any reason. I don't need their reason. I really don't.
I do judge a person who says they wouldn't be an advocate for their child if they had an intellectual disability or because "people like that make others very uncomfortable.". what you do with your ute is no business of mine but there are things you cannot test for inutero and you need to prepare yourself that your life is not going to be perfect, and neither is your child.
Holyfuuck.
You've been C&P'd, enjoy!
Yeah that's right my name's Yauch!
I have to agree with this. If I knew the child I was carrying had a profound disability I'd have to think long and hard on my choices. I, too, have a sister who is disabled. There's a difference between ideals ("People with disabilities can live long, full, and happy lives!"), and the reality.
Ugh, what an obnoxious, bigoted, asinine child you are. Fat chance of your child growing up smart, with this as an example.
Updated September 2012.
As always, Lanie took the words out of my mouth.
I am very curious what that poster will do if their child has a neurological disorder, or even a birth injury.
and OP, i hope your child doesn't have any mental delays or special needs b/c you are insensitive and hateful.
what if someone talked about your child the way you're talking about special needs children (no doubt, some of us among this board have a special needs child that sort of wants to throatpunch you). i hope you're around when you're kid is 2 or 3 so we call all ask you if you'd be so willing to dump your kid at the doorstep due to YOUR own issues.
Good grief, people, I looked up a quick stat to back my point, I didn't base my opinion on Wikipedia. That said, I'm sure that fact isn't made up. Why do you think they offer the testing? Just as a warning? Wake up.
I am not talking about my child developing disabilities or problems later. I am talking about what is preventable. So few of the serious issues in our life are actually within our control, but this one is case where we have a choice. It's worth thinking through all sides at the very least. I can certainly understand why so many people feel the way they do, but I feel it's a case where logic should rule over emotion, similar to deciding to start a family in the first place.
Mama to Sebastian, born 9/2010
Nah, I think we all understand that you meant "would you abort if you could prevent a lifetime of trouble for your child" and many of us would. You took it down the path of "ewww people with disabilities creep me out and make others uncomfortable" and that makes me give you the side eye.
Logically you are clearly not the parent for a child with any sort of developmental challenge. That's clear. you've said you wouldn't be their advocate, so I think your case abortion is necessary. I certainly wouldn't wish you on anyone with a dx of any sort of intellectual/LD issue.
however, you do realize you sound asinine and ignorant in your rantings right? Its not about "90% of people are like me." Because I think we all want healthy children with a good shot at a strong happy life. But I don't believe 90% of the population aborts children with DS (you'll have to give me the study) and I don't believe that 90% of the population is creeped out by people with disabilities. I can't believe that and do what I do for a living.
You may want to do a bit more research on autism for a number of reasons (I think you've heard some misinformation, potentially). I know a few very bright individuals with autism who cannot function very well without significant supports. I know some intellectually disabled individuals with DS who function at a much higher level than some individuals with autism who are supposedly "high functioning" due to their level of intelligence. At the end of the day, the most important factor for level of functioning in the disability world is day to day living skills - and these do not always go hand in hand with intelligence.
I think you are correct that it is a different situation when things develop later and aren't identified. In situation 1, you have a disability, such as DS, being presented with many unknowns. When we don't know much about something, we often imagine the worst case scenario. Further, you have not bonded with the child, yet. In situation 2, you have a child you've gotten to know and love and tend to look for the positives and hope in a situation.
I'm getting where you're coming from with your question. I thought through many of these questions prior to the point I tried to get pregnant and again prior to getting my own screenings done. Personally, if I had any question re: carrying out a viable pregnancy to term, I would not have tried to conceive in the first place. I chose to be screened simply to have all the information and to seek further testing if needed. I also know that I would have been faced with a very difficult decision if there were some sort of life-threatening disorder or situation with my pregnancy/baby causing pain or suffering - that is where my line is more readily drawn, I think (but I'm still not entirely sure and wouldn't be until faced with such a situation). I'm an older person (37) who has built my career around individuals with disabilities, so - different perspective, exposure, and experiences. My reactions to this thread were based in that exposure to individuals with disabilities and their families and also to give input that life, in general, has no crystal ball.
It's your attitude of disgust towards d/s or special needs that has people upset. Why would that attitude change if the disability showed up after birth?