HTT: Businesses not hiring smokers.

Foofie&thebean

Beginning in January 2015 the hospital I work for has decided they will not hire anyone who uses nicotine or tobacco product.

What are your thoughts? Good choice for a company to make or not?

Foofie&thebean

Personally, I think it's a good choice for a hospital to make.. Patients shouldn't have to smell your cigarette smoke while receiving care. And most are so sick that an irritant like cigarette smoke could potentially be harmful.

carawasa

It's probably to keep their health insurance cost lower, I'm assuming.

deedee1017

Foofie&thebean said:

Personally, I think it's a good choice for a hospital to make.. Patients shouldn't have to smell your cigarette smoke while receiving care. And most are so sick that an irritant like cigarette smoke could potentially be harmful.

I guess this kind of makes sense, but what about the people who are skilled and have been smoking for 20+ years?  What do they do?  It's an addiction that's hard to quit.  Will the hospital offer support services to help people who already work there stop smoking?

I don't know where I stand on the issue.  I'm not a smoker so I think it's great.  I have a coworker who smokes and she reeks of it every.single.day.  I'd love to not smell that anywhere.  However, I also have a family member who has tried to quit many many times and it's a real struggle for them.  I wouldn't want someone like him/her to be penalized.

taylormarie923

I don't agree with it. Employers shouldn't assert this much authority over what chemicals go into an employee's system, be it nicotine or BC. Having worked for a hospital, I can assure you that smokers aren't smoking right outside the door and do not interfere with patients receiving care. They walk off campus to the street or a designated smoking area to enjoy a cigarette.

Foofie&thebean

Here is the notice they put in their weekly newsletter. Sorry it's super long!

WellSpan adopts tobacco-free, nicotine-free hiring policy


Monday, August 18, 2014

All new applicants, who are offered a position at WellSpan, will be tested

Effective Jan. 1, 2015, WellSpan Health will no longer hire new employees who use tobacco or nicotine products.

WellSpan Ephrata Community Hospital has had a tobacco-free hiring policy since July 2011. As part of continuing integration efforts, the WellSpan Health Board of Directors noted the benefits of the policy for patients, visitors and employees, and approved extending those benefits to the entire WellSpan system.

The new policy is part of WellSpan’s continuing efforts to foster lifelong wellness and healthy communities, according to Robert Batory, senior vice president and chief human resources officer for WellSpan Health.

The policy only applies to new hires, Batory said. Current employees who use tobacco will not be affected.

“Our goal is to promote tobacco-free living and to create a healthier and more pleasant environment for those who visit or receive care at a WellSpan facility,” Batory said.

WellSpan first banned smoking indoors in its facilities in 1991. In 2006, the health system designated all WellSpan locations as tobacco-free campuses.

“This is yet another step in WellSpan’s journey to reduce the detrimental impacts of tobacco use in our community,” Batory said. Tobacco use is the leading cause of premature and preventable death in the United States.

The 2012 Community Health Needs Assessment showed that more than one in five adults in York and Adams counties identified themselves as regular smokers, while 13 percent of adults in Lancaster County are regular smokers. That statistic does not include minors who use tobacco, nor adults who use smokeless or other forms of tobacco.

Batory noted that the tobacco-free hiring policy is similar to other requirements for prospective employees, including being drug-free, fragrance-free and receiving an annual flu vaccination.

Under the tobacco-free hiring policy, anyone considering employment at WellSpan must be tobacco free as of Jan. 1, 2015. However, any applicants who accepted an active offer of employment from WellSpan prior to August 1, 2014 will be exempted.

All applicants, who are offered a position with WellSpan, will be tested for tobacco and nicotine use through a urine test as part of their post-offer, pre-placement health screening.

Those who test positive for tobacco and nicotine use will not be hired. If an applicant tests positive, he or she may re-apply for a position after 12 months, provided the individual has ceased using tobacco products.

If an individual tests positive for nicotine because of authorized tobacco cessation efforts, such as nicotine gum or a nicotine patch, it will not impact that applicant’s offer of employment, Batory said. This is in keeping with WellSpan’s tobacco cessation programs and counselors, which are aimed at helping individuals lead tobacco-free lives.

Foofie&thebean

taylormarie923 said:

I don't agree with it. Employers shouldn't assert this much authority over what chemicals go into an employee's system, be it nicotine or BC. Having worked for a hospital, I can assure you that smokers aren't smoking right outside the door and do not interfere with patients receiving care. They walk off campus to the street or a designated smoking area to enjoy a cigarette.

You can't deny though that the smell clings to clothes and hair regardless of how far from the site you smoke. Then you (general you) are going in and taking care of say an asthma patient who then has an asthma attack because there is enough of the irritant on your clothes.

muffyvonmuff

I say good choice.  Its a hospital, the employees should lead by example.  I have personally always found it gross to see hospital staff in their scrubs out front smoking.  Its like, look Doc don't go telling Mr. Smith he has lung cancer from smoking then go light up that Parliament yourself.    

Foofie&thebean

@deedee1017‌ they do offer smoking cessation programs for current employees.

stephl3055

I flip flop on thinking it's a good idea.  On one hand I can understand how they wouldn't want people who smell of smoke treating patients or potentially harming them (in the case of someone who is very ill or has asthma).  I would prefer that as well.  

However, one of their phrases caught my eye: "WellSpan’s continuing efforts to foster lifelong wellness and healthy communities".  So does that mean they also won't hire someone who is morbidly obese?  They could take this too far.  

Foofie&thebean

@stephl3055‌ that is a good point. I do think it's a very fine line they are walking and I could see how it could take that turn.

Weljadraak

No.  I think a smoke-free campus is reasonable, but discriminating against smokers is not.  Generally, if something only affects the person, leave them be.  A smoke-free campus is a reasonable compromise without infringing on personal rights.  As far as the clothing goes - other coworkers would be able to smell it, no?  So deal with that on a case by case basis and tell the person they smell like smoke.  Testing for nicotine crosses a line.  Smokers aren't doing anything wrong.

stephl3055

FWIW, I think I would be okay with them doing it depending on the job.  For instance, I don't think a NICU nurse should smoke.  I would be fine with someone who does the CT scans or some other similar task smoking.  

When I had a CT scan, the tech helped me get positioned, gave me my IV, and then left to start the scan.  She was with me maybe 5 minutes total, so I would be completely fine with a smoker in that case.  

Weljadraak

stephl3055 said:

However, one of their phrases caught my eye: "WellSpan’s continuing efforts to foster lifelong wellness and healthy communities".  So does that mean they also won't hire someone who is morbidly obese?  They could take this too far.  

Arguably, they already took it too far,  Someone who is morbidly obese is at a health risk.  What makes it any better than smoking?  Oops, rhetorical.  It's not.  It is a gateway.

Foofie&thebean

@Weljadraak‌ so what would they do then with that employee who smelled like smoke? Have them change clothes? And what clothes, because I'm sure they smoke at home so their change of clothes would smell too.

Weljadraak

Foofie&thebean said:

@Weljadraak‌ so what would they do then with that employee who smelled like smoke? Have them change clothes? And what clothes, because I'm sure they smoke at home so their change of clothes would smell too.

Yes.  They could have them change their clothes.  Or that employee could be smarter and not smoke in their work clothes.  They could have a change of clothes with them or wear a smoking jacket.  There are options and soap and water + a toothbrush and a mint would be necessary.  I don't agree someone working closely with others should reek of smoke but it's not fair to infringe on their rights, either.  A compromise is easy in this situation and anyone working with preemie babies or with the incredibly sick should know better ANYWAY.  

FTR, I don't think employees of any job should be visibly smoking.  Not the point, though.

Foofie&thebean

@Weljadraak‌ I get what you are saying and obviously this isn't a black and white issue.

But seriously though who is taking care if that employees patients while they take time to not only smoke their cigarette but then also change clothes/brush teeth/wash off. Thats not fair to the other staff to have to cover their own patients plus someone else's. It's one thing for a lunch break or one of the 2 - 15 minute breaks offered in a 12 hour shift but in most cases a smoker is going out more then twice in a 12 hour shift.

Weljadraak

Foofie&thebean said:

@Weljadraak‌ I get what you are saying and obviously this isn't a black and white issue. But seriously though who is taking care if that employees patients while they take time to not only smoke their cigarette but then also change clothes/brush teeth/wash off. Thats not fair to the other staff to have to cover their own patients plus someone else's. It's one thing for a lunch break or one of the 2 - 15 minute breaks offered in a 12 hour shift but in most cases a smoker is going out more then twice in a 12 hour shift.

Err, where is it implied they get extra time to do all of this?  They get their allotted breaks, as does everyone else, and in that time they need to manage it appropriately, as does everyone else.  This is, of course, a generality and any what-if situation would be addressed by the staff and superiors of whatever establishment one is employed.

Foofie&thebean

@Weljadraak‌ It wasn't implied they get more time but I'm going off years of experience with this. Maybe I'm salty because I have been that other employee who has to cover for the smoker.

I don't see why a supervisor should have to waste resources making sure a smoker is following common sense rules when they have bigger things to deal with. There seems to be a lot of other people making sure they are following the rules like they don't smell/are only going out for their allotted time/are going to the correct place to smoke.

PinkDahLia44

Foofie&thebean said:

@Weljadraak‌ I get what you are saying and obviously this isn't a black and white issue.

But seriously though who is taking care if that employees patients while they take time to not only smoke their cigarette but then also change clothes/brush teeth/wash off. Thats not fair to the other staff to have to cover their own patients plus someone else's. It's one thing for a lunch break or one of the 2 - 15 minute breaks offered in a 12 hour shift but in most cases a smoker is going out more then twice in a 12 hour shift.

This. I'm pretty sure our hospital adopted this policy last year as well. I don't have a problem with it, but I'm pretty anti-smoking and can't imagine what would cause someone to start in the first place. However, @Weljadraak‌ brings up some excellent points.

Weljadraak

It is the supervisor's responsibility to ensure all employees are following the guidelines.  It is the employee's responsibility to follow them but when they are not followed, a higher up deals with it.   I feel like you are targeting smokers more harshly, so perhaps you are biased.  What I mean is smokers are not the only ones capable of snuffing the rules.

Weljadraak

PinkDahLia44 said:

@Weljadraak‌ I get what you are saying and obviously this isn't a black and white issue. But seriously though who is taking care if that employees patients while they take time to not only smoke their cigarette but then also change clothes/brush teeth/wash off. Thats not fair to the other staff to have to cover their own patients plus someone else's. It's one thing for a lunch break or one of the 2 - 15 minute breaks offered in a 12 hour shift but in most cases a smoker is going out more then twice in a 12 hour shift.

This. I'm pretty sure our hospital adopted this policy last year as well. I don't have a problem with it, but I'm pretty anti-smoking and can't imagine what would cause someone to start in the first place. However, @Weljadraak‌ brings up some excellent points.

To touch on the breaks point again, it's not a smoking problem as much as it is a time management problem - that being the company and the employees.  The person in charge should not be allowing their staff to take unaccounted for smoking breaks and the employee should be more respectful of the company.  The other employees should probably grow a backbone, too, and deal with the employee taking longer breaks, which could be the employee taking an extra 5 or 10 minutes going to the bathroom or talking on the cell phone just as much as it could be the smoker.  

There should be not contention if the rulebook stated THERE SHALL BE ONLY 2 -15 MINUTE BREAKS IN AN 8 HOUR TIME, NO EXCEPTIONS.  Ok, cool.  Follow AND enforce the rules.

Foofie&thebean

@Weljadraak‌ you are right I am targeting smokers more harshly and you are also right smokers aren't the only ones capable of snuffing the rules.

I have always had negative feelings about smoking.

Amjoy25

taylormarie923 said:

I don't agree with it. Employers shouldn't assert this much authority over what chemicals go into an employee's system, be it nicotine or BC. Having worked for a hospital, I can assure you that smokers aren't smoking right outside the door and do not interfere with patients receiving care. They walk off campus to the street or a designated smoking area to enjoy a cigarette.

Right they do. And others have to watch their patients while they smoke every 2 hours. It's unprofessional and inconsiderate. Smokers get more breaks while I am designated to my 2 15minute and 1 30minute breaks. Its bullshit. Good thing I got out of that place!

Weljadraak

Foofie&thebean said: @Weljadraak‌ you are right I am targeting smokers more harshly and you are also right smokers aren't the only ones capable of snuffing the rules. I have always had negative feelings about smoking.

Smoking is...smoking.  Whether I'm cool with it, hate it or indifferent - doesn't matter.  I think the company's policy is too extreme.  NO regulations would be too lax.  Smoking is a personal choice but your personal choices should never infringe upon others.  

Amjoy25

I agree with it. And it is to keep insurance costs low. However, I also feel there should be assistance for those who want to quit that already work with the company.
It's not discrimination if the company takes a hard stand at not hiring any smokers.

Amjoy25

Foofie&thebean said:

@Weljadraak‌ I get what you are saying and obviously this isn't a black and white issue.

But seriously though who is taking care if that employees patients while they take time to not only smoke their cigarette but then also change clothes/brush teeth/wash off. Thats not fair to the other staff to have to cover their own patients plus someone else's. It's one thing for a lunch break or one of the 2 - 15 minute breaks offered in a 12 hour shift but in most cases a smoker is going out more then twice in a 12 hour shift.

Damn. Read all responses amjoy

Weljadraak

Amjoy25 said:

I agree with it. And it is to keep insurance costs low. However, I also feel there should be assistance for those who want to quit that already work with the company. It's not discrimination if the company takes a hard stand at not hiring any smokers.

Obviously I disagree to some extent because it is discrimination.  It's a personal right to smoke.  I think the bold is a great idea, though.  I actually wish more companies supported their employees without costing the employee something.

Foofie&thebean

@Weljadraak‌ you're exactly right someone's personal choices should never infringe in someone else's.

Smoking is a personal choice that does infringe on others though. You can say it doesn't but it does. At the end of the day a longtime smoker will still smell of smoke when taking care of a patient no matter how many times they changed clothes or brushed their teeth.

Amjoy25

You know what's worse then carbs?







Smoking.

Weljadraak

Foofie&thebean said:

@Weljadraak‌ you're exactly right someone's personal choices should never infringe in someone else's. Smoking is a personal choice that does infringe on others though. You can say it doesn't but it does. At the end of the day a longtime smoker will still smell of smoke when taking care of a patient no matter how many times they changed clothes or brushed their teeth.

Is that a fact, though?

I feel like you are imagining a raspy, hacking, seconds away from a trach employee who's teeth, nails and house's walls are stained yellow.  If not, my apologies. 

Foofie&thebean

Weljadraak said:

Foofie&thebean said:

@Weljadraak‌ you're exactly right someone's personal choices should never infringe in someone else's.

Smoking is a personal choice that does infringe on others though. You can say it doesn't but it does. At the end of the day a longtime smoker will still smell of smoke when taking care of a patient no matter how many times they changed clothes or brushed their teeth.

Is that a fact, though?

I feel like you are imagining a raspy, hacking, seconds away from a trach employee who's teeth, nails and house's walls are stained yellow.  If not, my apologies. 

Eta: broken quote.

Let's say the average smoker smokes 5 cigarettes day... In say a years time that comes to approx. 1800 cigarettes. Tell me that after that their teeth and hands aren't stained which also means their surroundings have soaked in that smell ie. clothes, hair, car, purse. That smell to a non smoker is very distinct.

Weljadraak

Foofie&thebean said:

Eta: broken quote. Let's say the average smoker smokes 5 cigarettes day... In say a years time that comes to approx. 1800 cigarettes. Tell me that after that their teeth and hands aren't stained which also means their surroundings have soaked in that smell ie. clothes, hair, car, purse. That smell to a non smoker is very distinct.

Are they lacking in personal hygiene?  Do they not wash their clothes?  Not all smokers smoke in their cars or in their homes.  I am a non-smoker so I know what smell you are talking about.  However, I also know very well-kept, conscious smokers.  

Foofie&thebean

Weljadraak said:

Foofie&thebean said:

Eta: broken quote.

Let's say the average smoker smokes 5 cigarettes day... In say a years time that comes to approx. 1800 cigarettes. Tell me that after that their teeth and hands aren't stained which also means their surroundings have soaked in that smell ie. clothes, hair, car, purse. That smell to a non smoker is very distinct.

Are they lacking in personal hygiene?  Do they not wash their clothes?  Not all smokers smoke in their cars or in their homes.  I am a non-smoker so I know what smell you are talking about.  However, I also know very well-kept, conscious smokers.  

-----------------------/-------------------------
It's not a lack if personal hygiene. It's just like if you drink coffee or tea everyday it will stain your teeth even with brushing them. The effort you would have to put forth to not smell like smoke after even a year is more than I think most are willing to do.

Weljadraak

Foofie&thebean said:

-----------------------/------------------------- It's not a lack if personal hygiene. It's just like if you drink coffee or tea everyday it will stain your teeth even with brushing them. The effort you would have to put forth to not smell like smoke after even a year is more than I think most are willing to do.

Okay well, a year of smoking is not going to ruin your teeth but regardless how is someone's stained teeth a health hazard on others?  If that's the case - sorry, coffee and coke drinkers.

Weljadraak

Foofie&thebean said:

-----------------------/------------------------- It's not a lack if personal hygiene. It's just like if you drink coffee or tea everyday it will stain your teeth even with brushing them. The effort you would have to put forth to not smell like smoke after even a year is more than I think most are willing to do.

Also, there's not much effort involved.  Can you please explain the different hygiene practices of a smoker versus non-smoker? 

Foofie&thebean

I'm not saying someone's stained teeth is health hazard. I am pointing out how easy even with personal hygiene these chemicals make their presence known. Of your teeth and fingers are stained from nicotine I'm sure the smell is there.

The practices in hygiene wouldn't be different in a non smoker then in a smoker but seriously you can't tell me that even with all the hand washing and teeth brushing in the world that smell isn't still there on clothes and hair and something like tar that is in cigarettes doesn't stain even with hand washing.

Phalaenopsis

It's all about the benjamins baby. The negative health consequences of tobacco use are far-reaching and extremely costly for insurers. I hate smoking but I'm undecided on whether or not it is fair to discriminate against someone who smokes in the hiring process. How is this any different than an employer dictating an employee's form of birth control? I think the two should be separate. I mean, I guess with the ACS, using tobacco is in direct conflict of the company's mission, so I can understand it from that perspective. People who smoke should pay more for their health insurance; being left out of the hiring pool seems unfair. 

elllaf

Weljadraak said:

Smoking is a personal choice but your personal choices should never infringe upon others.  

This.
BC and being obese doesn't harm anyone else.
Second & third hand smoke DOES.

Especially in a hospital setting I don't think it's going too far.
It's 2014. We all Know how terrible smoking is. It's only a matter of time before this is the norm.
#andicantfuckingwait

ajjf1026

I think it's a great idea. In Michigan, all the major hospitals have already started doing this (Henry Ford, St John, Crittenton, McLaren, etc.). Being that it's a hospital, I think it's a wonderful idea and it makes complete sense. Promoting a healthy lifestyle & following through with it is an important step in getting our society to follow. 

I also agree that other businesses should follow suit. 

ajjf1026

elllaf said:

Smoking is a personal choice but your personal choices should never infringe upon others.  

This. BC and being obese doesn't harm anyone else. Second & third hand smoke DOES. Especially in a hospital setting I don't think it's going too far. It's 2014. We all Know how terrible smoking is. It's only a matter of time before this is the norm. #andicantfuckingwait

Amen sista!