Being Stubborn

Chuck1906

I don't know if this is part of the "Terrible 2's phase" but my son has been really stubborn lately and I am not sure what brought this about. You tell him to do something and he won't do it or depending on the person, he may tell them no. He knows better than to talk to me like that. If he does something wrong, he will not say he is sorry. If he does say it, its always on his terms which usually is 10-15 minutes later and usually when he wants something. Ive seen him go from a super happy mood to a stubborn "don't bother me" kind of attitude. 

Is this something I should just be patient with because its a phase and he will eventually growing out of it or should I be concerned?

ELF4321

Sounds like a normal toddler to me. Patience and repeatedly explaining rules are the best approach, IMO. Also, try giving him a lot of warnings about what is coming up, like okay, you can play with your blocks for 5 more minutes and then we're going to clean up and do X instead (then give 2 and 1 minutes warnings before announcing it's time). You'll probably still get resistance sometimes, but it might alleviate some of the frustration. And when possible, I also try to wait until she's between activities, like when she puts her doll down and before getting into something else, I'll announce it's time to get ready for the store, etc.

ashiscute

Agree.  You just described a typical toddler.  Nobody likes being told what to do regardless of age.  So you need to give him as much control as possible.  Give choices whenever you can versus saying do this.  Like PP said always give warnings about switching activities.  Honestly, I'm baffled about him saying sorry on his own terms being a problem.  Don't make that in to a power struggle.  Accept his sorry when he gives it and move on.  

Chuck1906

Well he had told his Mom Mom NO after she told him to come here. She is a retired teacher and has dealt with kids her whole life so she was the one that was having him say he was sorry. He does say he is sorry when he acts up but its when he wants to say it. If I explain to him what he did was wrong and he needed to say he was sorry then he starts pouting and being stubborn. It never fails that a short time later he is asking for a snack or wanting to play with a certain toy and its usually at that time I will hear him say he was sorry for being bad. 

I don't know about giving him as much control as possible. Thats like saying he is the boss and he is not the boss at least not with me he isn't. I believe his mom is good for letting him do whatever and if she doesn't get a handle on that, he is going to be out of control when he gets older. That said, I do give him a lot of freedom as well to do what he wants within reason that is. I often wonder if I am giving him too much freedom because when I tell him not to do something he'll start with that stubborn stuff or will keep right on doing whatever I told him not to do or will pick up something and deliberately throw it on the floor out of frustration.

If this is typical toddler behavior then I should have nothing to worry about then. 

Thanks!!

Aurora_Borealis

It sounds like you have a normal toddler.

But I think PP meant is that it is easier if you give your child the illusion of control by offering choices. That's what we do with DD. For example, she *hates* diaper changes and will fight them if we say, 'okay, it's diaper time.' But if we ask 'Do you want your diaper changed on the floor or on your bed?,' she will say 'Bed!,' run over to her bed and be totally cooperative. I personally don't care where she gets her diaper changed and giving her the 'choice' in the situation alleviates a lot of the struggle and stubbornness.

And when she does things that she shouldn't, like mistreating her toys, blowing bubbles in her cup or something , I give her the choice - 'do you want to stop doing that with your _blank_ or do you want me to take it away?' She is usually all 'nonononononono,' but I calmly say, it is your choice. You can stop and keep it, or it will be taken away. If she doesn't stop, I take it away briefly and then ask her if she wants to try again. After that she usually gets it and stops the offending behavior.

ashiscute

Aurora_Borealis said:

It sounds like you have a normal toddler.

But I think PP meant is that it is easier if you give your child the illusion of control by offering choices. That's what we do with DD. For example, she *hates* diaper changes and will fight them if we say, 'okay, it's diaper time.' But if we ask 'Do you want your diaper changed on the floor or on your bed?,' she will say 'Bed!,' run over to her bed and be totally cooperative. I personally don't care where she gets her diaper changed and giving her the 'choice' in the situation alleviates a lot of the struggle and stubbornness.

And when she does things that she shouldn't, like mistreating her toys, blowing bubbles in her cup or something , I give her the choice - 'do you want to stop doing that with your _blank_ or do you want me to take it away?' She is usually all 'nonononononono,' but I calmly say, it is your choice. You can stop and keep it, or it will be taken away. If she doesn't stop, I take it away briefly and then ask her if she wants to try again. After that she usually gets it and stops the offending behavior.

Thank you so much for explaining this better than I did.  Of course your child isn't the boss and never should be.  But letting them make lots of choices and having a say in things is a huge confidence booster for kids.  

sugarbear0524

Given choices A or B (blue shirt or red shirt), my son will want choice C (yellow shirt, not weather appropriate/too small/etc.)

janinekrause

ashiscute said:

Agree.  You just described a typical toddler.  Nobody likes being told what to do regardless of age.  So you need to give him as much control as possible.  Give choices whenever you can versus saying do this.  Like PP said always give warnings about switching activities.  Honestly, I'm baffled about him saying sorry on his own terms being a problem.  Don't make that in to a power struggle.  Accept his sorry when he gives it and move on.  

I disagree with the sorry part. If my 2 year old does something wrong- throws a toy, hits, throws food on floor, rips one of her sisters books, etc.. - she usually goes right into a time out, and needs to apologize. Sometimes just an apology-depending on what it is. She is VERY stubborn and she will dig her heels in. If she doesn't apologize, she can continue to sit by herself. I am not going to move on and just play etc. and have her apologize when she feels like it. That prob sounds harsher than it is in reality but I want my toddler to learn appropriate behavior, which includes apologizing when she does something wrong.

She gets it 100%, usually says sorry on her own, but if not, then she doesn't get attention until she does.

blu-eyedwife

Chuck1906 said:

Well he had told his Mom Mom NO after she told him to come here. She is a retired teacher and has dealt with kids her whole life so she was the one that was having him say he was sorry. He does say he is sorry when he acts up but its when he wants to say it. If I explain to him what he did was wrong and he needed to say he was sorry then he starts pouting and being stubborn. It never fails that a short time later he is asking for a snack or wanting to play with a certain toy and its usually at that time I will hear him say he was sorry for being bad. 

I want to address this really quickly because I think part of the problem here is you're expecting him to behave like a rational "adult" (for lack of a better description).  You and I are able to put a lot more thought process into our emotions.  We recognize when and why we feel certain ways and how to deal with it.  Toddlers are just coming to grips with the idea of their feelings and emotions and really don't have much of an emotional vocabulary.  What you're describing sounds less like "being stubborn" and more like "feeling bad about what he did."  But he can't express that.  It's not that he doesn't want to say sorry, it's just that he can't compartmentalize and his immediate reaction is to be hurt.  They're all ID at this age, so his first focus is going to be himself, how he is feeling.  He is upset that he (got in trouble, hurt someone, etc. etc. etc.) and that's what he's dealing with in the instant moment.  I often find that if I help my son express his feelings, we can move the situation along more quickly.  "Are you feeling sad right now?  Why?" and then we can talk about his actions how they affect him, others, and what an apology can do to rectify the situation for both.

ashiscute

janinekrause said:

ashiscute said:

Agree.  You just described a typical toddler.  Nobody likes being told what to do regardless of age.  So you need to give him as much control as possible.  Give choices whenever you can versus saying do this.  Like PP said always give warnings about switching activities.  Honestly, I'm baffled about him saying sorry on his own terms being a problem.  Don't make that in to a power struggle.  Accept his sorry when he gives it and move on.  

I disagree with the sorry part. If my 2 year old does something wrong- throws a toy, hits, throws food on floor, rips one of her sisters books, etc.. - she usually goes right into a time out, and needs to apologize. Sometimes just an apology-depending on what it is. She is VERY stubborn and she will dig her heels in. If she doesn't apologize, she can continue to sit by herself. I am not going to move on and just play etc. and have her apologize when she feels like it. That prob sounds harsher than it is in reality but I want my toddler to learn appropriate behavior, which includes apologizing when she does something wrong.

She gets it 100%, usually says sorry on her own, but if not, then she doesn't get attention until she does.

You are welcome to disagree.  Personally I didn't push sorry on my DD before she could really understand it.  Now that she knows what sorry means she says it on her own.  But before she was really capable of understanding that I didn't push a meaningless sorry out of her.  I talked about being sorry and gave her the opportunity, just didn't force it.  I prefer apologizing because they are truly sorry than because they were told to.  It seems petty to me to make a power struggle out of something that is beyond their comprehension.  But if it works for your DD that's fine.  I do what works for me.  

janinekrause

If I thought it was beyond her comprehension, that would be a different story. She gets it 100 percent and her emotional understanding is there.

For example if she accidentally hurts her sister, she says I'm sorry, are you ok and hugs her. Does that sound like a kid who doesn't understand? I didn't ask her to do any of that in my "petty" power struggle.

I personally think people underestimate what their children understand.

TiffanyBerry

There's a difference between teaching to apologize and forcing an apology (or withholding any and all attention until there had been an apology, which is emotional manipulation).  I'm with freda on this (I know, you're not surprised ).  I DO teach apologies, but I do not force them.  Teaching someone to apologize, or to control themselves, does not - in a good teaching strategy - involve controlling them yourself. That's the only way they can CHOOSE to control themselves, or even try to.  Oh, kids need help, certainly, but forcing it keeps them from choosing it.

I'm also in the "no punishment" camp, so I just don't get the "you hurt someone and you will be punished".  Because I feel like that's just teaching the kid that they need to figure out how to avoid punishment, not teaching them how to make the choice not to hurt someone in the first place.  (I'm not saying "oh, you hurt someone, whatever".  If my daughter kicks me on accident, I don't yell or put her in time out.  If she does it again, still an accident, but clearly not being careful, I move out of range so she can't hit me.  I don't have to put her in time out to stop the kicking.)

ashiscute

TiffanyBerry said:

There's a difference between teaching to apologize and forcing an apology (or withholding any and all attention until there had been an apology, which is emotional manipulation).  I'm with freda on this (I know, you're not surprised ).  I DO teach apologies, but I do not force them.  Teaching someone to apologize, or to control themselves, does not - in a good teaching strategy - involve controlling them yourself. That's the only way they can CHOOSE to control themselves, or even try to.  Oh, kids need help, certainly, but forcing it keeps them from choosing it.

I'm also in the "no punishment" camp, so I just don't get the "you hurt someone and you will be punished".  Because I feel like that's just teaching the kid that they need to figure out how to avoid punishment, not teaching them how to make the choice not to hurt someone in the first place.  (I'm not saying "oh, you hurt someone, whatever".  If my daughter kicks me on accident, I don't yell or put her in time out.  If she does it again, still an accident, but clearly not being careful, I move out of range so she can't hit me.  I don't have to put her in time out to stop the kicking.)

All of this.  I never said I watch my kids act poorly and just laugh it off.  I said if my DD does something I tell her that she should apologize and why.  That she hurts so and so's feelings and what if it happened to her?  How would she feel?  And then she has the opportunity to apologize and she usually does.  But she is 3 now.  When she was 2 she may not have.  I just don't see a problem with that.  I think it's petty to ignore your LO until they apologize.  I think it would be petty to do that to an adult and why should a child be different?  

OP asked about the child apologizing on his own terms instead of when told to.  I think that sounds healthy.  It does not sound like a problem to make.  

janinekrause

TiffanyBerry said:

There's a difference between teaching to apologize and forcing an apology (or withholding any and all attention until there had been an apology, which is emotional manipulation).  I'm with freda on this (I know, you're not surprised ).  I DO teach apologies, but I do not force them.  Teaching someone to apologize, or to control themselves, does not - in a good teaching strategy - involve controlling them yourself. That's the only way they can CHOOSE to control themselves, or even try to.  Oh, kids need help, certainly, but forcing it keeps them from choosing it.

I'm also in the "no punishment" camp, so I just don't get the "you hurt someone and you will be punished".  Because I feel like that's just teaching the kid that they need to figure out how to avoid punishment, not teaching them how to make the choice not to hurt someone in the first place.  (I'm not saying "oh, you hurt someone, whatever".  If my daughter kicks me on accident, I don't yell or put her in time out.  If she does it again, still an accident, but clearly not being careful, I move out of range so she can't hit me.  I don't have to put her in time out to stop the kicking.)

Emotional manipulation? Oh my goodness. A little over the top don't you think? My kid is stubborn and wants control like most 2 year olds. I pick where she can feel in control, and where it is non-negotiable and I have the control. One of those times is when she hurts me or others, or is acting really poorly. I have a 5 year old who is now an amazing, respectful child, with her own thoughts, empathy and feelings. I didn't squash them or turn her into a robot by being stern and teaching appropriate behavior from a young age. Trust me- she is still tough, and stubborn but knows right from wrong, and is very loved. Maybe I will ask her if she felt emotionally manipulated.

janinekrause

When people use words like emotional manipulation, I disagree that is just a perspective. Just how I read it. Of course, a lot of the opinions were great different perspectives and approaches, but that seemed a little over the top.

janinekrause

Nicb13 said:

janinekrause said:

When people use words like emotional manipulation, I disagree that is just a perspective. Just how I read it. Of course, a lot of the opinions were great different perspectives and approaches, but that seemed a little over the top.

I get that. Some parents views ARE over the top.

TiffanyBerry

janinekrause said:

TiffanyBerry said:

(or withholding any and all attention until there had been an apology, which is emotional manipulation).

Emotional manipulation? Oh my goodness. A little over the top don't you think? My kid is stubborn and wants control like most 2 year olds. I pick where she can feel in control, and where it is non-negotiable and I have the control. One of those times is when she hurts me or others, or is acting really poorly. I have a 5 year old who is now an amazing, respectful child, with her own thoughts, empathy and feelings. I didn't squash them or turn her into a robot by being stern and teaching appropriate behavior from a young age. Trust me- she is still tough, and stubborn but knows right from wrong, and is very loved. Maybe I will ask her if she felt emotionally manipulated.

Yes, I'm going to call withholding any and all attention until you get what you want to be emotional manipulation.  It is.  Heck, it's a tool adults use every day in almost every relationship we have. You are manipulating (changing) someone else's behavior (giving or not giving an apology) by use of withholding attention (which equates to affection in kids, and more complicated feelings in adults).

I didn't say emotional manipulation was evil.  I certainly didn't call it emotional abuse, which your response leads me believe is what you *though* I was saying, though I didn't say it at all.

Emotional manipulation (guilt trips, passive aggressive behavior, etc.) are part of how many people interact with each other.  I try to avoid intentionally using them when trying to teach my daughter because I don't think they will provide as effective of an environment for teaching.  That's all.

And, finally, I absolutely didn't say anything about YOUR parenting in particular.  I didn't say anything about you turning your kids into a robot or squashing their emotions.  I've never seen you parent, never heard you parent, I can't say a thing about whether or not what YOU do is something or not.  Do you withhold ANY AND ALL attention until an apology is given?  Then maybe you can make that logical conclusion that I'd call that emotional manipulation.  (Though, again, I didn't say it was "BAD", merely giving it the appropriate label, and if that's a tool you want to use, ok!  I think we should just know when we're using it.)  But honestly, I can't picture most parents being quite that extreme, and I can only assume that you, personally, are not.

ashiscute

mbenit4 said:

janinekrause said:

TiffanyBerry said:

There's a difference between teaching to apologize and forcing an apology (or withholding any and all attention until there had been an apology, which is emotional manipulation).  I'm with freda on this (I know, you're not surprised ).  I DO teach apologies, but I do not force them.  Teaching someone to apologize, or to control themselves, does not - in a good teaching strategy - involve controlling them yourself. That's the only way they can CHOOSE to control themselves, or even try to.  Oh, kids need help, certainly, but forcing it keeps them from choosing it.

I'm also in the "no punishment" camp, so I just don't get the "you hurt someone and you will be punished".  Because I feel like that's just teaching the kid that they need to figure out how to avoid punishment, not teaching them how to make the choice not to hurt someone in the first place.  (I'm not saying "oh, you hurt someone, whatever".  If my daughter kicks me on accident, I don't yell or put her in time out.  If she does it again, still an accident, but clearly not being careful, I move out of range so she can't hit me.  I don't have to put her in time out to stop the kicking.)

Emotional manipulation? Oh my goodness. A little over the top don't you think? My kid is stubborn and wants control like most 2 year olds. I pick where she can feel in control, and where it is non-negotiable and I have the control. One of those times is when she hurts me or others, or is acting really poorly. I have a 5 year old who is now an amazing, respectful child, with her own thoughts, empathy and feelings. I didn't squash them or turn her into a robot by being stern and teaching appropriate behavior from a young age. Trust me- she is still tough, and stubborn but knows right from wrong, and is very loved. Maybe I will ask her if she felt emotionally manipulated.

These are all just opinions on the topic at hand and it seems like you are getting defensive over nothing IMO. Really defensive. People are just giving their perspective and how they do things. It's all helpful advice.

********************************* I don't think this poster is defensive at all. Like what are you reading? It was said teaching to apologize was a bad thing in a PP. Anyway for me apologizing was to teach when you do ______ that hurts and acknowledging that you caused someone pain, not about power over my child. It was never forced for us. Once I explained you hurt someone an apology was never far off. Never forced.

Please tell me where you read this.  I did not read it anywhere.  I read that some parents thought it was important that their child apologize immediately when told to.  And others said they don't think it's a problem if a child apologizes on their own terms.  

janinekrause

Just oh boy....

Everyone can parent how they want obviously, and there are LOTS of ways to raise happy healthy kids.  Just a whole lot of judging sometimes on how people go about it.

 

 

janinekrause

The whole thread is hilarious.

There are a lot of implications here but I have yet to meet anyone IRL who thinks making a child apologize for bad behavior = bad thing. Or ignoring a child with silent treatment= emotional manipulation.

I ignore my child's tantrums and screaming all the time- and leave her to yell in her room by herself. Trust me, she is fine.  She isn't scarred by that. Its called learning that sometimes when you do things, you get a reaction you might not like.

ashiscute

janinekrause said:

The whole thread is hilarious.

There are a lot of implications here but I have yet to meet anyone IRL who thinks making a child apologize for bad behavior = bad thing. Or ignoring a child with silent treatment= emotional manipulation.

I ignore my child's tantrums and screaming all the time- and leave her to yell in her room by herself. Trust me, she is fine.  She isn't scarred by that. Its called learning that sometimes when you do things, you get a reaction you might not like.

I'm not arguing with you or worried your LO is scarred.  I just felt that OP was worrying over a non-issue which was his LO apologizing on his own terms.  I just think it's odd to ignore someone till they say what you want to hear.  I've never been a fan of a meaningless sorry.  I'd rather my kid come to the conclusion on her own.  

janinekrause

I hear you. I ignore my 5 year old when she says get me my XX, do XXX. If she doesn't "get" that I am ignoring being rude, I remind her how to talk like a normal person that's all I mean by ignore.

I think written communication is hard to explain exactly the things that happen- hence things come off black and white, too strong, etc - across the board. My  2 year old doesn't sit in a time out for 20 minutes with me ignoring her. She needs help and I help her get there. But I walk away for a while when she doesn't do what I ask, try again, then walk away again, etc etc.

TiffanyBerry

mbenit4 said:

Lol at the person getting accidentally kicked. I don't know how that happens.

That's some awesome empathy you're showing there.

How does it happen?  DD and I are on the bed, as I hug her goodbye for the night, and I give her a kiss that tickles, she kicks her legs.  As she kicks her legs from the tickle, I get a wiggling, kicking foot in the chin or cheek (I long ago learned to take off my glasses).

There you go.  Accidental kick.

Was that really so hard to imagine?

janinekrause

TiffanyBerry said:

mbenit4 said:

Lol at the person getting accidentally kicked. I don't know how that happens.

That's some awesome empathy you're showing there.

How does it happen?  DD and I are on the bed, as I hug her goodbye for the night, and I give her a kiss that tickles, she kicks her legs.  As she kicks her legs from the tickle, I get a wiggling, kicking foot in the chin or cheek (I long ago learned to take off my glasses).

There you go.  Accidental kick.

Was that really so hard to imagine?

it was how you explained it. 2nd accidental kick sounded weird. OMG- who would punish their kid/put them in a time out for kicking them when they were tickling them? That is not what people were referring too.

Although I do still teach that you need to apologize for accidentally hurting someone but I don't make a big thing out of it.