Parenting

Have we discussed? Brain dead pregnant mother

http://fw.to/67DiaYI Munoz was 14 weeks pregnant when she collapsed and was declared brain dead. The hospital will not remove her from life support, against the families wishes. Texas, along with at least two dozen other states, prohibit cutting off life support to a pregnant patient. It provides striking similarities and differences to the Jahi case.
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Re: Have we discussed? Brain dead pregnant mother

  • I'm not 100% sure about my feelings on this. I do believe that the baby has a right to live. However, if it was my family member, it would probably be more complicated. It is a sad situation all around.
  • My thoughts -

    1. If the baby will be fine than why does the family want the mother removed from life support?
    2. The article states that the health and viability for the "fetus" remains unknown. I'm assuming this is b/c the hospital isn't able to discuss the medical details b/c the family has yet to allow this.
    3. Who is footing the bill?
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  • She's 20w pregnant now, right? I feel so awful for her husband, child, and parents. I think I could understand the situation better if the baby were already at the age of viability. At 14w, it would have been no different than the father choosing an abortion.
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  • My thoughts -

    1. If the baby will be fine than why does the family want the mother removed from life support?
    Because she is dead? 

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  • @pobrecita I get where you're coming from. However, I always considered my kids to be babies, from the time I found out I was pregnant.

    @chickenonsunday I wonder about your first point too. I know, given the choice, lots of people would want the baby. I have read almost opposite stories of people fighting to keep them on support for the baby. It would be a miracle, as @uconnhuskie007 said.
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  • edited January 2014
    missymo said:
    My thoughts -

    1. If the baby will be fine than why does the family want the mother removed from life support?
    Because she is dead? 
    I agree that the parents of the  mother are quoted in the article saying they wanted her removed from life support. I scanned the article a second time to find a quote from the husband but didn't find a comment. The article did say that he stills goes and sits by her bedside.

    Also, this is article is a good reminder to everyone to have a will that includes end of life care.

    ETA: forgot a sentence
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  • It does sound morbid about her just being an incubator. I read another article about the family feeling that way. This is local for us, so it's gotten a lot of coverage.
  • It's been a while since I read about it, but the initial articles I read indicated that the husband fears the child will be mentally challenged in some way since they don't know if, or how long, the baby was without oxygen. I'm not sure how I feel abou that, but again, I have no idea what it would be like, or how it would feel, to be in this situation. I have a great deal of sympathy for everyone involved.

    If it were me, and I was brain dead, if there was a chance my child could live, I would want to take that chance. That's just me though. It's so sad. All of this is so sad. I need to stop clicking on these posts!

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  • missymomissymo
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    edited January 2014
    missymo said:
    My thoughts -

    1. If the baby will be fine than why does the family want the mother removed from life support?
    Because she is dead? 
    I agree that the parents of the  mother are quoted in the article but I scanned the article a second time to find a quote from the husband. He still goes and sits by her bedside.

    Also, this is article is a good reminder to everyone to have a will that includes end of life care.
    The husband wants to turn the machines off.   He does not want his dead wife's body to be an incubator.  She died when she was only 11 weeks pregnant or something.

    Eta: sorry, I see that it was 14 wks.

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  • Sorry @auburngirlsc It is a horrible sad situation. It has been on our news the past couple of days. After the debate about Jahi, I thought this was another angle for discussion.
  • pobrecita said:



    Also, this is article is a good reminder to everyone to have a will that includes end of life care.
    But this is the law in Texas. So even having a legal document in place wouldn't supersede that, I don't think.
    I couldn't tell from the article if the legal document trumps the law. Anyone know for sure? I don't plan on moving to Texas so I wasn't super motivated to do research.
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  • IDk, it's a tough decision.  I think that the husband/father gets to makes the decision for both, so they should be taken off life support.  But with that being said, as a mother, if there was a chance your child would survive, wouldn't you want that?   Because although my family knows I wouldn't want to be on life support I've never talked to them about being on life support and pregnant.  I asked DH and he said it would depend on how far along I was.  I do think that 14 weeks is very early, but if the fetus was, say 24 weeks, the earliest it could be viable, would that make a difference?

    The doctors say they will be able to tell more about the viability of the pregnancy/how the baby is doing when she's 22-24 weeks.  I'll be interested to see. The mother was denied oxygen for a while, but the body is designed to protect the fetus, so I'm very interested in the outcome. 
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    Lilypie - (Sx0q)
  • I don't like that they are doing this against the family's wishes. It's a very difficult situation for the family, but if they don't want to keep her on life support and are comfortable with terminating the pregnancy then I don't think this should be forced upon them.
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    Spin313piffley[Deleted User]
  • Sorry @auburngirlsc It is a horrible sad situation. It has been on our news the past couple of days. After the debate about Jahi, I thought this was another angle for discussion.
     
    @eleventy11 it's ok! I knew what it was about when I clicked on it. I need to have more self control. It is a very relevant discussion.
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  • Throwing a wrench into this...I wonder what would happen if no one was there to take custody of the child...ie the dad was killed and there was no family. That would change my feelings, if it were my child. I agree with auburngirlsc. If it was me, I would want my child to have a chance. I don't know if I would want my child to grow up without any family though.
  • My thoughts -

    1. If the baby will be fine than why does the family want the mother removed from life support?
    2. The article states that the health and viability for the "fetus" remains unknown. I'm assuming this is b/c the hospital isn't able to discuss the medical details b/c the family has yet to allow this.
    3. Who is footing the bill?

    The bolded, but I agree this is such a tricky thing. 

    If the baby was a "wanted" baby (which I assume he/she is or was), wouldn't this woman's parents want to give the baby a shot?

    It's a really, really tough call though.

     

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  • Just found this after doing a google search -

     At least 31 states have adopted laws restricting the ability of doctors to end life support for terminally ill pregnant women, regardless of the wishes of the patient or the family, according to a 2012 report from the Center for Women Policy Studies in Washington. Texas is among 12 of those states with the most restrictive such laws, which require that life-support measures continue no matter how far along the pregnancy is.

    I live in North Carolina and it looks like they don't have provisions of advanced directive care while pregnant. My husband and I have yet to draw up wills and I will discuss this situation with him so we can come to the decision together. I would want to be kept on life support if there was the chance for a quality of life for my unborn child.
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  • From what I read the law supersedes any will. I can see both sides, but it should be the husband's choice. He is being made to continue a pregnancy he doesn't want. It's basically like a women being kept in the hospital to stop her from having an abortion. 
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  • pobrecita said:
    I don't like that they are doing this against the family's wishes. It's a very difficult situation for the family, but if they don't want to keep her on life support and are comfortable with terminating the pregnancy then I don't think this should be forced upon them.
    I don't see this is as terminating the pregnancy. If she hadn't made it to the hospital in time, the baby would be dead. Just because we have the medical means to do something, doesn't make it ethical.

    Honestly I'm one of those "it's not a baby yet" people, and were I in this situation I don't know that I'd want that burden on my family (the possibility of a special needs child). But I know a lot of mothers would be perfectly fine with the idea of keeping their bodies alive with the chance their child could survive. It's a personal choice either way, and I don't think the hospital or government has any business getting involved in it.
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  • I find this disgusting. I feel so bad for this family.  “It’s about a matter of our daughter’s wishes not being honoured by the state of Texas.” Does this mean that she had a DNR?
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  • DreadLoc said:
    "Erick Muñoz said that he and his wife are both paramedics — she with Children’s Medical Center of Dallas, he with the Crowley Fire Department — and that they had discussed removing life support if either fell into a vegetative state. Moreover, she discussed the issue with her father, Ernest Machado, he said."


    this seems to be why the family wanted to take her off life support.  she wished for it.
    The thing is though- did she specify her wishes while pregnant?  Because that could change her feelings( it would for me).  Like I wouldn't want to be in a vegetative state, DH knows that, but we never discussed the possibility of it happening to me while pregnant. DH and I discussed this last night (PSA: talk to your spouse/family).
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    Lilypie - (Sx0q)
  • Holy.fucking.shit. :( that poor poor man and family. This is so god damn full of no. NOOOPPPEEEE.
    I have so many thoughts, and have half typed out some longer responses, but this is what it boils down to for me too. 

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